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Old 10-17-2017, 10:17 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Extra Medium View Post
I'd do the standard strength replacement spring, just for peace of mind. Is it a 2 rivet or a 3 rivet model?
Looks to be three rivet model
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:19 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by mishaco View Post
I disagree. The NPAP did not fail Rob's 2nd 5k test, and the only part that really broke was the buttstock, which is a crap made US part from Century. They put the same stock on their current WASR10s too, so its reasonable to assume it would fail in a WASR 5k test too.


Not saying the NPAP is perfect, but at current prices, you get a very good rifle for the coin.
My NP-DF has been 100% for over a year now....hey for me personally, it has a better trackrecord than my Polytech Legend lol.
Only thing I recommend is to swap out the recoil spring, and eventually the buttstock (if fixed stock) too.
Then your rifle should be gtg.

At least, sure beats a RAS47 right?
And is much cheaper than any Arsenal, even the SLR-107R.
Never had a full stock npap,but have had several underfolders,still have two,my shooter just broke 3000 rds this weekend in a year,and one couldn't tell it from the unfired,barely. Not one failure ever,spot on in accuracy no flaws if a gun has any flaws in function it's the hell out of here quick.IMO no better rifle made by anyone at the price point it is.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:52 AM   #73
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Misha, this quote is from Rob regarding the second NPAP test. Note that he says there were 40-50 malfunctions. He didnít record it all.

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Originally Posted by Rob Ski View Post
I was surprised by this too. You could see where this was going after first couple thousand rounds. But it looks like metal got beat up to the point where deformation stopped.
I would say that Rak1 trigger probably helped.
@Anti rotation pins - Well, I had zero problems with trigger group moving around, but I suspect that retention plate helped more...
@ malfunctions - I would say that it was easy around 40 to 50 malfunctions in total. Again, most popular one, for whatever reason, was failure to feed.
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:06 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Browning Hi Power View Post
Misha, this quote is from Rob regarding the second NPAP test. Note that he says there were 40-50 malfunctions. He didnít record it all.
just playing devil's advocate... he surmised in the comment sections of that same one that he thinks it was due to the under powered recoil spring which also probably led to the cracked receiver (at least in part). something a quick spring change from the beginning might mitigate
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:34 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
just playing devil's advocate... he surmised in the comment sections of that same one that he thinks it was due to the under powered recoil spring which also probably led to the cracked receiver (at least in part). something a quick spring change from the beginning might mitigate
Thatís a good point. Speaking about under power recoil springs, I took out the stock recoil springs from my WASR and Draco and one is significantly shorter than the other, I mixed them up so I donít know which. The springs that come on these guns are added by Century IMO and they are very weak. With slight pressure of a pinky I could move the bolt carriers back a bit.
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:37 AM   #76
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Yeah. Luckily springs are cheap. I have two new wasrs and as soon as I break them in a bit I'm replacing with Wolff standard power springs just for safety. $15 is solid peace of mind. However, like the npap. I think it's cugir that's doing them. Recently century sent us a list of what parts were u.s. and which were factory Romanian and the recoil spring wasnt installed by century
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:47 AM   #77
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Here are the things that I have changed in my Npap.

1. Wolff extra power recoil spring
2. Replaced Tapco hammer to one from Arsenal (Bulgaria)
3. Shepherds hook replaced with a plate
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:50 AM   #78
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I wonder if the newer n-paps and df,s come with the rak-1 like the newer wasr
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Old 10-17-2017, 11:54 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
Yeah. Luckily springs are cheap. I have two new wasrs and as soon as I break them in a bit I'm replacing with Wolff standard power springs just for safety. $15 is solid peace of mind. However, like the npap. I think it's cugir that's doing them. Recently century sent us a list of what parts were u.s. and which were factory Romanian and the recoil spring wasnt installed by century
If you’re going to go with standard power you can get the springs from K-Var for much cheaper.

http://www.k-var.com/shop/AK-033.html

I saw that report too. I was surprised and I don’t know that I buy it. The recoil springs that came with my AIMS kit, SAR1 and 2, all look different than the current WASR and Draco spring.
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Old 10-17-2017, 12:08 PM   #80
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The hammer and trigger holes can be screwed up from the start. The pins can also go into the receiver. I do not like the pins going past flush with slight pressure. This has gotten better, but I still see slopped out holes and pins with a lot of push.
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Old 10-17-2017, 12:15 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
I wonder if the newer n-paps and df,s come with the rak-1 like the newer wasr
They do.
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Old 10-17-2017, 12:20 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Browning Hi Power View Post
If you’re going to go with standard power you can get the springs from K-Var for much cheaper.

http://www.k-var.com/shop/AK-033.html

I saw that report too. I was surprised and I don’t know that I buy it. The recoil springs that came with my AIMS kit, SAR1 and 2, all look different than the current WASR and Draco spring.
Damn. That's a BIT cheaper. Might grab 2-3 for replacements and backups at that price. Only problem is that they want $15 just to ship one... when I can get an ALG or Wolff for $12-$15 SHIPPED already.... lol..

Dunno if it's true or not. Was just saying what they told us

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Old 10-17-2017, 12:25 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
I wonder if the newer n-paps and df,s come with the rak-1 like the newer wasr

Yep they come with rak-1 triggers for over a year now. The rak hammer profile is very gentle to the carrier tail. Absolutely no deformation on my DF carrier tail. Just some polish marks from the hammer.
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Old 10-17-2017, 07:57 PM   #84
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Well, my opinion has already been stated enough. Question though, in Rob's second 5k test, was that NPAP one of the original 2 rivet, or one of the newer 3 rivet models?

Neither of my NP-DF have ever given me a lick of trouble or cause to worry. Those friends of mine that own a standard NPAP report much the same.
There are several youtube (and other) reviews with positive conclusions, from satisfied NPAP owners (though to be fair, the same can be said for the RAS47).
While I do not have any NPAPs in the store ATM, I have sold a couple hundred over the years. Not once as a customer called ack telling me I sold them a POS and asking for return/warranty help. Not saying all that left my hands are still working perfectly today, but can say I don't know otherwise. Also for any of those out tehre in customer service and/or retail, I think you know how we tend to hear anytime someone isn't happy with a product...even if its 6 months or a year later lol. I had one guy call me after owning a Colt AR15 A4 from me. He wanted to return it after discovering the front sight base was canted slightly. It took him the same amount of time it would have his wife to bring a baby to term to notice this, but he still called me twice asking for a refund or return lol.

Finally, those that own NPAPs on this very board are generally reporting good reliability and no serious wear/tear.

So those things, up against Rob's 5k tests...and keeping in mind the second rifle was still shooting at the end.
Remember too that the paint on his Arsenal was bubbling, so does that mean that all Arsenals we own will do the same?

As to the 40-50 malfunctions, those could very well be caused by the rifle, and that possibly due to a too weak recoil spring.
There could also be another reason/cause. Might have been a bad mag in the mix he was using or just one that the NPAP didn't work 100% with.
Or it could have been the ammo. Recently, we posted a video of a Polytech Legend failing. In its comments, many people blame the Wolf ammo we were using, saying they experienced something similar in one of their rifles. This cold be. Yes, that Wolf has worked fine in our other guns, but its possible that due to a slightly tight chamber in the rifle, and slightly oversized casings; that we have tolarence stacking to produce the malfunctions. Is it possible something similar was happening there with that NPAP?
Also, just because we had a bad run with 1 Polytech, does that mean all of them are bad?

Of course not, a sample of 1 is prone to aborations and frankly just weird malfunctions. Yes, Rob did test 2 NPAPs and while his results were better with the second, he still had issues. Thing is, very few other people are reporting major issues with their semi-auto only NPAPs. Again, the BF Las Vegas guns? too many unknowns there for us really to make any informed conclusions. We don't know round counts, # of rounds in semi vs full, and how many rifles were converted and from which production batch/batches.

Final, reminder: all just my opinion. If you disagree, that's cool with me. Just as I don't at all mind you disagreeing with me.
All I can do is form my opinions based on as much first hand experience as possible, and I've just never had a bad experience with an NPAP that might change my mind. If i ever do, you all will hear about it asap.

Rob's videos are great, but I have never bought or passed up a firearm based solely on what one of his 5k tests has shown me.
However, it was thanks to his results (combined with a few others), that caused me to swap springs out in my Zastava PAPs, for which I am greatful. I do feel this is a simple fix, that will keep my guns in good working order for a longer period of time.
I did something similar with my WASR, replacing the Tapco FCG with something that wouldn't beatup my carrier.
And put the birdcage flash hider on my SAM7SF, because it looked a little gay with an AK74 brake on it hehe.

I don't mind modifying my own guns a bit to get them to where they appeal to me a little better.
I'd say with the NPAP, you do need to swap out a couple parts to allow it to be all the rifle it can be.

Buy or don't buy, its all good and we can still be friends right? hehe, cheers.

P.S. - just published a new video today and it does cover 2 Zastava products.
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Old 10-19-2017, 05:23 AM   #85
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Old 10-19-2017, 09:11 AM   #86
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thanks for all the input everyone
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Old 10-28-2017, 10:50 PM   #87
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Have the heat treating issues been resolved on these yet? I want a folder and a NPAP DF would save some hassle from getting a wasr and sourcing a side folder. Also curious about this recoil spring business, has anyone compared a regular wasr recoil spring to npap to see if it's a weak spring or over gassing?
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Old 10-29-2017, 12:00 AM   #88
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Understand: NPAP M70 (fixed stock, 1.0mm), OPAP M70 (fixed stock 1.5mm), and NPAP-DF (folding stock, 1.0mm) are all Zastava built guns, but are different model variants.

Century and Zastava never acknoweldged any heat treat issue.

It was never 100% confirmed either. The evidence was interesting but people disagreed. Some said 'too hard' others 'too soft' and others 'too just right.' So it was a weird, fucked up gun version of Goldy Locks or something.
I think people have just let it rest. I've not seen any new studies or tests done within the last year or so.
there are 10s of thousands of PAPs out in the USA. I think if there was a major issue, we'd be seeing KBs on youtube by now...which we do see for the RAS47 and I.O.
I do think there are some PAP lemons, which sucks. Also lemons are true for any product, anywhere.
I think the NPAP is generally good to go. I think the NPAP-DF is generally very good to go. Its different trunnion style and 3 rivet locations seems to be plenty strong and durable. I am not aware of anyone reporting heat treat issues or cracked whatevers with the DF variant; just with the NPAP M70, and those are a few reports. Most youtube reviews show people that are happy with their purchase.

As to recoil springs, why get all scientific and waste time and energy doing testing? Its a $5 part and takes 2 minutes to replace. Its just insurance that myself and many others have taken with our rifles. Over gassed or not, why not? hurts nothing, costs next to nothing, and makes us feel better. I can tell you, mmy OPAP and NPDF do seem to have a bit less felt recoil after swapping their Zastava factory springs out with others (one has a Polish and the other a Wolf).


If you are planning to convert your rifle to full-auto and run 20,000 rds through it, then yeah probably just play it safe and avoid the Zastavas.
If you plan on shooting in semi auto and putting 1,000-2,000 rds through it a year, the PAPs are great values for the money, in my opinion.

I've tried putting 'I think' and 'my opinion' as that's all this is. I have no hardcore, scientific evidence to back what I feel up.
Likewise, those that dislike the PAPs do not have firm and regerously tested numbers to proove their case either.

Either of us could be right or wrong.

In the end, does this all really matter? Anyone can make a lemon, and sometimes even a cheap firearm lasts for ages. Heck, I bet there are plenty of happy HI-Point owners (my fingers feel dirty from typing that) with high-round count guns.
Nothing in life is certain, so just buy what you like and I bet you it all turns out just jim dandy.

Between myself and my circle of close gun friends, there are probably a dozen Zastava PAPs that we shoot regularly, and of those half are NPAPs.
So far, so good without issue, and this includes my friend who bought his back in 2013 right when they came out.

But to be fair, there are also happy RAS47 owners who are reporting 1,000s of rounds without issue.

I like imports, so when i see one i like, i grab it if i can.
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Old 10-29-2017, 08:24 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mishaco View Post
Understand: NPAP M70 (fixed stock, 1.0mm), OPAP M70 (fixed stock 1.5mm), and NPAP-DF (folding stock, 1.0mm) are all Zastava built guns, but are different model variants.

Century and Zastava never acknoweldged any heat treat issue.

It was never 100% confirmed either. The evidence was interesting but people disagreed. Some said 'too hard' others 'too soft' and others 'too just right.' So it was a weird, fucked up gun version of Goldy Locks or something.
I think people have just let it rest. I've not seen any new studies or tests done within the last year or so.
there are 10s of thousands of PAPs out in the USA. I think if there was a major issue, we'd be seeing KBs on youtube by now...which we do see for the RAS47 and I.O.
I do think there are some PAP lemons, which sucks. Also lemons are true for any product, anywhere.
I think the NPAP is generally good to go. I think the NPAP-DF is generally very good to go. Its different trunnion style and 3 rivet locations seems to be plenty strong and durable. I am not aware of anyone reporting heat treat issues or cracked whatevers with the DF variant; just with the NPAP M70, and those are a few reports. Most youtube reviews show people that are happy with their purchase.

As to recoil springs, why get all scientific and waste time and energy doing testing? Its a $5 part and takes 2 minutes to replace. Its just insurance that myself and many others have taken with our rifles. Over gassed or not, why not? hurts nothing, costs next to nothing, and makes us feel better. I can tell you, mmy OPAP and NPDF do seem to have a bit less felt recoil after swapping their Zastava factory springs out with others (one has a Polish and the other a Wolf).


If you are planning to convert your rifle to full-auto and run 20,000 rds through it, then yeah probably just play it safe and avoid the Zastavas.
If you plan on shooting in semi auto and putting 1,000-2,000 rds through it a year, the PAPs are great values for the money, in my opinion.

I've tried putting 'I think' and 'my opinion' as that's all this is. I have no hardcore, scientific evidence to back what I feel up.
Likewise, those that dislike the PAPs do not have firm and regerously tested numbers to proove their case either.

Either of us could be right or wrong.

In the end, does this all really matter? Anyone can make a lemon, and sometimes even a cheap firearm lasts for ages. Heck, I bet there are plenty of happy HI-Point owners (my fingers feel dirty from typing that) with high-round count guns.
Nothing in life is certain, so just buy what you like and I bet you it all turns out just jim dandy.

Between myself and my circle of close gun friends, there are probably a dozen Zastava PAPs that we shoot regularly, and of those half are NPAPs.
So far, so good without issue, and this includes my friend who bought his back in 2013 right when they came out.

But to be fair, there are also happy RAS47 owners who are reporting 1,000s of rounds without issue.

I like imports, so when i see one i like, i grab it if i can.

Thanks again for adding some clear, concise thoughts, Misha.

One question... Did you use a standard Wolff spring, or the XP? I have a DF inbound now, and I'm on the fence about which spring to purchase.

Last edited by Maxxsmart; 10-29-2017 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 10-29-2017, 09:20 AM   #90
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I disagree. The NPAP did not fail Rob's 2nd 5k test, and the only part that really broke was the buttstock, which is a crap made US part from Century. They put the same stock on their current WASR10s too, so its reasonable to assume it would fail in a WASR 5k test too.


Not saying the NPAP is perfect, but at current prices, you get a very good rifle for the coin.
My NP-DF has been 100% for over a year now....hey for me personally, it has a better trackrecord than my Polytech Legend lol.
Only thing I recommend is to swap out the recoil spring, and eventually the buttstock (if fixed stock) too.
Then your rifle should be gtg.

At least, sure beats a RAS47 right?
And is much cheaper than any Arsenal, even the SLR-107R.

Some people ^ just prefer to advocate any AK manufacturer who is making bad products or providing horrible business style and no warranty and support to us. It is not easy to make/save $ for Americans as well Misha. Yes we respect your knowledge Misha but world around us is not as perfect and we would like to know either it is good or bad rifle, not a little bad or little good. That is too liberal for many of us.
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Old 11-25-2017, 10:38 PM   #91
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That the carrier hits the rear trunnion is normal. The question is how hard. On my NPAP it was very hard with stock recoil spring. It got much softer with a new Wolff spring.
The carrier is not supposed to strike the rear trunnion, if it does, you have a weak recoil spring!
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Old 11-26-2017, 01:33 PM   #92
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Here are the things that I have changed in my Npap.

1. Wolff extra power recoil spring
2. Replaced Tapco hammer to one from Arsenal (Bulgaria)
3. Shepherds hook replaced with a plate
Here's my take-

1. Replaced leaf spring assy with telescoping rod assy
2. Kept stock hammer
3. Shepherds hook replaced with a plate

PS- I have the 3 rivet rear trunnion.


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Old 11-26-2017, 07:15 PM   #93
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I remember in the 80’s&90’s when everyone thought the Chinese AK’s were made of soft metal.
I love my DF and M92’s, zero problems for me.
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Old 11-26-2017, 08:41 PM   #94
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Can you really compare the OPAPís and NPAPís? The Oís were surplus Guns from the 1970ís, right? The Nís are new production? My understanding (which could definitely be incorrect) was that the theory was the OPAPís had outstanding metal treatments back in the 1970ís when Zastava supposedly had their shit together....then the NPAP metal treatments were modern steps in the wrong direction?

I canít spesk to the Nís. I own a dinosaur OPAP and love the big tank!

Quote:
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It was still working at the end of the test.
Which is more than others.
Rob did give it away to a viewer too, recommending they keep an eye on the rear trunnion area.

The crack was very small, and 'might' have never happened with a different recoil spring.
The spring loaded latch coming out isn't a failure since the part effectively does nothing. It is just left over from grenade launching funtimes. The rifle would work exactly the same without it. Rob reinstalled it with a rock if memory serves right?
As to multiple cycling failures, i recall a few but nothing catastrophic, and causes could have been a number of things.

This site seems in love with the OPAP, yet people continue to disregard the NPAP. I am sorry, but that is a double standard.
Remember people loved the NPAP a lot more before his first 5k test. I just feel that if you condemn one, you must at least question the other. I know people think the OPAP's 1.5mm receiver would keep it from having any cracks or other issues, but this is just a theory. It could absolutely be true or a 5k test could reveal the same shortcomings. Without one, we just don't know for sure.

Keep in mind I did say the NPAP wasn't perfect and have agreed that the recoil spring is a weak point that needs switching out.
I am not even defending a rifle because I own it...I don't have an NPAP M70, either personally or in the store.
I do ahve an OPAP and NP-DF, which are different models, though all 3 are very similar and all built from the same basic materials and at the same factory by the same workers.

At $600 and even $550, the NPAP is still a much better buy than the I.O. or RAS47....you'll never convince me otherwise.
Is it better than the WASR? nah not really but then again, i don't think its majorily worse. Afterall, some guys like that the NPAP has a blued finish, and some have reported better accuracy with them. Also has a heavier barrel and longer HGs, which again some folks like.

There aren't reports all over the net of NPAPs blowing up like there are of the RAS47, so when people ask for a good sub-$600 AK, I don't feel at all bad in pointing them towards the NPAP.
It'll serve them a lot longer than most US made AKs, and it won't become a health risk hehe.

This is all old news and has been said before, so sorry for repeating myself.
Just my opinion based on selling these for a few years and talking with customers and friends that have shot theirs a goodly bit.
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Old 11-26-2017, 10:30 PM   #95
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Quote:
Can you really compare the OPAP’s and NPAP’s? The O’s were surplus Guns from the 1970’s, right? The N’s are new production? My understanding (which could definitely be incorrect) was that the theory was the OPAP’s had outstanding metal treatments back in the 1970’s when Zastava supposedly had their shit together....then the NPAP metal treatments were modern steps in the wrong direction?

I can’t spesk to the N’s. I own a dinosaur OPAP and love the big tank!
O-PAPs were new production, the only ones I know of that used surplus parts from the 70's, 80's were some of the kit builds Century did. I think some of the earlier OPAPs that were imported may have used some surplus parts like the front sight and rear sights with the tritium inserts. Also the wood looks surplus, at least on mine.
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Old 11-27-2017, 08:54 PM   #96
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I've had an NPAP for about 3 months and have put roughly 1200 rounds of 123 grain Wolf Polyformance through it with absolutely no problems so far.

It's got the Century RAK1 Trigger and there hasn't been any peening occurring at the bolt carrier tail which I attribute to the hammer profile being softer on the tail than the Tapco trigger they used to come with.

I've been cleaning and lubing the rifle after every range outing which usually sees 80-100 rounds fired, and the internals that Rob Ski looks at during his reviews seem to be holding up very well although I don't run the gun nearly as hard as he runs the guns he tests.

The NPAP set me back less than $500 and so far I'm very satisfied it and will continue to try to shoot it once a week.

It appears to be a decent rifle for my purposes but if I run into any difficulties I will post them here.

Although I've been shooting for roughly 60 years and I try to get to the range 2-3 times a week, I'm new here and new to AKs so I don't have nearly the knowledge that I've seen displayed here by others.
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Old 11-27-2017, 09:18 PM   #97
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I've had an NPAP for about 3 months and have put roughly 1200 rounds of 123 grain Wolf Polyformance through it with absolutely no problems so far.

It's got the Century RAK1 Trigger and there hasn't been any peening occurring at the bolt carrier tail which I attribute to the hammer profile being softer on the tail than the Tapco trigger they used to come with.

I've been cleaning and lubing the rifle after every range outing which usually sees 80-100 rounds fired, and the internals that Rob Ski looks at during his reviews seem to be holding up very well although I don't run the gun nearly as hard as he runs the guns he tests.

The NPAP set me back less than $500 and so far I'm very satisfied it and will continue to try to shoot it once a week.

It appears to be a decent rifle for my purposes but if I run into any difficulties I will post them here.

Although I've been shooting for roughly 60 years and I try to get to the range 2-3 times a week, I'm new here and new to AKs so I don't have nearly the knowledge that I've seen displayed here by others.
Welcome to.the club. How do you like it so far? Have no worries, the npap is a quality rifle and should serve you very well. You were smart/lucky to avoid the current American made models.
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Old 11-27-2017, 09:52 PM   #98
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If I owned one and it finally cracked in the back Id look at it as a blessing.

Rebuild it on a new ReCreator or chiders receiver with a M70 or standard AKM trunnion
The bonus ........ no more stupid read the owners manual nonsense engraving on the sides.
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Old 11-27-2017, 10:20 PM   #99
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Welcome to.the club. How do you like it so far? Have no worries, the npap is a quality rifle and should serve you very well. You were smart/lucky to avoid the current American made models.
Thanks.

I like it a lot, and it's a very enjoyable rifle to shoot and I'm going to shoot it often, but I'm not going to beat it up with any sort of torture testing.

I'm keeping an eye on the stuff Rob Ski looks out for and I'll report any problems that may arise under the sort of conditions I'll be using it in.
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Old 11-28-2017, 12:41 AM   #100
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The fit and finish on the N-PAP is better than a lot of low end AK's being sold.
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Old 11-29-2017, 06:18 PM   #101
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I asked Alexa what was the best AK47, she said in her opinion it is the Serbian Npap.

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The part of the nervous system responsible for control of the bodily functions not consciously directed, such as breathing, the heartbeat, digestive processes and ordering AK 47 magazines.
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Old 12-02-2017, 04:02 PM   #102
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it was his 5,000 round test of the N-pap. he had a crack on the frame/rear trunnion area that he attributed to the carrier smashing back in the trunnion repeatedly

(he also showed a pic later that I can't find that showed the crack was actually extending INTO that sunken rivet hole and circling all the way around)

Hey guys, I got the older one with the 3 rivets and the lo cap mags (single stack.) Will I likely see this same issue eventually?
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Old 12-02-2017, 04:10 PM   #103
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Secondary question, is it possible to weld a Zastava back together after it cracks itself?
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Old 12-02-2017, 04:18 PM   #104
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Secondary question, is it possible to weld a Zastava back together after it cracks itself?
Read the BLV thread, they tried it, failed.
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:17 PM   #105
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Hey guys, I got the older one with the 3 rivets and the lo cap mags (single stack.) Will I likely see this same issue eventually?
Taking out the third rivet weakened the back of the receiver.
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