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Old 12-04-2017, 11:24 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Tanker2000 View Post
I know, I know, there are 731,594 posts/threads/comments on here about why only Eastern European made stuff is the way to go. Before all you "search for it you idiot" police start whupping up on me, just give me a chance and read this...When you search there is SO much info with so many useless comments thrown in such as "American AKs suck" and tons of technical info from people on here that have forgotten more about this than I'll ever know. So, help those of us who aren't long time "AK people" understand. Please help us understand by using facts instead of "you're an idiot to buy an American made AK." I understand that cast trunnions are one of the issues that cause concern? Beyond the cost reason, why do American manufacturers go that route if they know it's an issue with buyers? What are other things American companies have done that don't work and they wouldn't change their ways? Why don't American companies make AKs in 5.45 and 5.56?
Sorry this is so long but I've been trying to figure this out and the data mass is simply to large on here. I hope some of you that know your shit will help the rest of us again with some education. Thanks!

You have to understand, that American manufacturing don't have experience, and right tooling like Russians, Bulgarians have. US companies don't have military contracts to keep them afloat. So they taking lot of risk and they want to make money of the product. Eastern Europe been doing this for decades. Can US manufacture do it? well that depends how much you willing to spend on rifle. For US manufacture to build rifle from scratch per specs and build forged trunnion and bolt and other parts, will cost much more money then for Bulgarians or Russians or Romanians. Labor and manufacturing does cost considerable more in US. So rifle would cost more then $1200 for US version to be build per specs, but US manufacture know that people will not spend that kind of money on AK. A lot people think AK is just cheap rifle to shoot. They not passionate like me or people here on this platform. So to build rifle and make money at price range people will buy, they have to cut corners and we all know where quality goes.
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:28 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by AKBLUE View Post
Actually there is a growth and a transition into producing good firearms or parts it seems.
Small companies that do not have test facilities, large order and military trials are generally in a hurry to get product to market.

Most larger companies have not embraced AK type production to any degree.

Having said that there are several things that have occurred.

Receiver production- over time the quality and players and features of the receivers has improved and today there are USA receivers that are equal to any imported or milspec receivers.

Barrel production- over time barrel production, quality and choices of fini8sh and caliber have reached a point where quality products are available.
One of the impediments is the commbloc deviations in barrel component parts which creates issues for barrel producers in terms of journal specs. The commbloc method of wide range specs in barrel journal sizes is a PITA for production.

Furniture Production- there is a fair amount of quality furniture available for installing on AK firearms

Gas pistons, FCG and muzzle devices - a good source for all these items and many muzzle devices.

There is a lacking of quality and proven performance in the primary "action" components of the trunnion, carrier and bolt.

As far as economically competitive with imports., that is another story. Time will tell.
But as example a sub $600 +/- shooter grade AR15 is readily available. It would seem an AK pattern rifle production cost could follow this path.
Ak is much more harder to build then AR. AK easier to maintain and use, but building is different story
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:37 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
why can't people like both?
They can, lol. I'm guilty....

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Old 12-04-2017, 11:37 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by simpletrader View Post
it's not that i hate the ar but it's fanboys have ruined it for me. ar fanboys seem to be the most rude and trashy people they can be, almost like if you prefer something other than their gun then fuck you, a lot of them don't know what a quality ar build is either and think their dmps oracle is the same as a bcm
Theres snobs in every hobby. Theres plenty of AK fanboys on this site that talk shit about AR's.
Both are great rifles that have their pros and cons. No reason to hate one or the other.
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Old 12-04-2017, 11:43 PM   #110
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They can, lol. I'm guilty....

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Now ya need a model minus the handle
While your at it, a middy AR also would be good for the collection
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Old 12-05-2017, 12:18 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Jabes0623 View Post
You're an idiot.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH....I couldn't read further to your thread dawg...The OP specifically done told you and everyone on here not to call him an idiot and what did you do?


AKBlue: Infront of you is a Maadi Styer AKM for $600 and CAI CV39 for $200 pesos and I.O. -free

Which one would you buy?
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Old 12-05-2017, 01:47 AM   #112
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None, its a trick question.

Its a Federale trap!
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Old 12-05-2017, 04:39 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by 4mula View Post
Now ya need a model minus the handle
While your at it, a middy AR also would be good for the collection
Oh yeah, I been done that.

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Old 12-05-2017, 04:51 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by 4mula View Post
Arsenal's have the same shitty fit and finish, cant this and that and so on yet cost $100's more than the $600 WASR with the same issues.
That is all anecdotal. Not saying stuff doesn't happen but some like you blow it out of proportion like it is common. I have Arsenal rifles and have had none of those issues. Many others don't. Do lemons happen? Yes, but nowhere near Century's.

Also here are some things you are missing that an Arsenal (SLR-107FR) has but a WASR doesn't.

-Sidefolding stock. The setup for that alone with the trunnion and stock goes for well over $300. You think Arsenal should just eat those costs and the labor to make it? Having the folding stock as worth having or not is irrelevant. The stock itself is money. If you don't care about it there are cheaper options.

-Muzzle device. Arsenal 107FR has a muzzle brake already sighted in and ready to go out of the box. On a 7.62x39 rifle having a muzzle brake is a night and day difference. I should know this because my SGL-21 is a more comfortable shooter to my four other 7.62x39 AK's all sporting slants and nuts. To get a WASR up to that you have to spend at least $100 for a decent brake then more money on ammo to sight it in since it will throw off the POI. When I bought my Maadi some dingus put on a faux Tapco "brake" that was making the shots go high and right. Got rid of the stupid thing and lo and behold, the sights were dead straight, no adjustment required.

-Furniture. All modern WASR's these days have crap furniture. Prepare to spend over $100 for a decent stock set that doesn't suck. Arsenal already comes with a modern, milspec polymer furniture set ready to go.

-Conversion process. Arsenal Inc. does much better setting up the magwell for regular mags. WASR's can be notoriously sloppy with this.

-Magwell dimple. Aesthetically more pleasing. Doesn't affect function but compared to the WASR with a rivet and bar looks cheap and it is. They do it cause it saves them money which is ironic because Romanian AK's sold in Europe have magwell dimples so they cheap out for us but not their fellow Europeans.

-Double stack, milspec bolt. Arsenal has it, WASR doesn't. Again doesn't affect function but I prefer the beefier, standard bolt.

Then again there is taste involved. If you want the most modern looking, 21st Century AK straight from the factory then Arsenal is all there is. If you want a classic, 20th Century, wood-stocked AKM then go with a WASR or go PAP for a Yugo flavor.

Arsenal still throws in some accessories like a sling, oil bottle, and cleaning kit. AFAIK Century stopped doing that with WASR's a while ago.

So after everything is said and done modifying a WASR it comes close to what a factory Arsenal costs but even then it still loses some features out of the box that a Arsenal already has. Only thing the WASR has on the Arsenal out of the box is a 30 round mag instead of a 10-round range mag.

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Originally Posted by 4mula View Post
One thing that pisses off many including those thinking about getting a AK is the famous poor workmanship on those rifles. Its stopped me from ordering online as the one Arsenal i did order came in fucked up and had canted sights.
Most peeps who pay $1000 plus for a rifle are not gonna deal with a piss poor finish and canted sights, gas blocks and so on.
More subjectivity. The AK what it is. I didn't get into AK's because they look pretty. I got in to them because they work, durable, simple, and reliable. Canted sights are unfortunately a part of AK milspec standards. Then again plenty of AR's and other Western guns get canted sights too so it isn't a problem that affects AK's alone.

If you want better craftsmanship then don't complain when they charge more to make the rifle to look pretty or simply buy another type of gun then. People are already complaining about how expensive AK's are I don't need them going any higher because someone is complaining about cosmetics or doesn't understand that AK's are a different kind of beast.

If you care that much about aesthetics then go buy Atlantic's Polish rifles but they cost over $1,000 as well. That is what you get if you care so much about "looks".

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Originally Posted by 4mula View Post
IMO with the AK's lack of popularity when compared to the AR, the AK in general should never cost more than $850 or so unless its milled and upgraded.
Where are you finding AK's routinely going that high? Gunbroker? Your local Armslist?

$850 and less is exactly where AK's are these days unless you are getting into parts kit builds or high demand items no longer being imported like pre-ban's or no longer imported Arsenal rifles. Funny that you say $850 because that is exactly what the current SLR-107 is going for which means to you, the Arsenal is priced where it should be!!

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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
You could buy a Romy about 2010 for about $300 or less Saigas were cheap then also
Maybe well-used ones. New ones weren't going that low especially where I was. Then again 2010 was barely two years into Obama's presidency and AK's were still nowhere as popular as they are and no Russian sanctions either.

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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
Things did not double on these or triple in 7 years I may be a bit off on the date but it wasent that long ago . I paid $175 for a new buy no box Saiga 410 some time around 2010 or so at a gun shop. I should find the receipt.
It was marked down due to no box I remember thinking I saved $50
False equivalence there, Saiga .410's were never popular or sold well which is why they were so low. Sounds like maybe the gun store you were at didn't value AK's highly and sold them cheap.

Your anecdotal experience doesn't speak for everyone.

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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
The AK is enjoying a surge from the Preppers and others who think there going to be in a Battle situation or at least like talking about it . There trendy right now but there is a limit to how many guys will spend a grand on a rifle with a $20 barrel and a $5 receiver . Out side the internet most guys can care less about a AK .
Well that is news to me because I am not a prepper, I just like having lots of guns and ammo around because I like them. I also happen to like the AK a lot.

You also contradicted yourself there. If AK's are not popular and only popular on the internet then why are their prices going up? If the prices are too high then they would fall if there is no demand for them, which is exactly what happened to the AR market. High supply and low demand is why AR prices are what they are. Even then they are slowly creeping back up so they aren't as cheap as they once were either.

You can't blame the high price on preppers since they are an extreme minority.

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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
There is not a ton of them being brought in any more and that made the supply scarce . There are no cheap kits to for company's here to build to keep importers and distributors honest .
Its pretty hard to get $1000 for a rifle when before the parts could be had for $100 . now that the Internet has shown every tom dick and harry how to build and companys sell the tools to do it and flat bending id almost a lost art kits are sought after . 15 years ago you could barely give them away . I was seeing AK kits for $50 in about 2003 with barrels intact .
no way was a guy going to buy a WASR for $700 back then or even $350 .
Again you are ignoring several factors.

2003:
-Still had an AWB
-Virtually no U.S. companies making compliant parts for 922r so parts kits were worthless.
-No one wanted AK's

14 years ago is 14 years ago, we are in 2017 now. A lot of things were cheaper back in 2003. Just because something was cheap in 2003 doesn't mean it should be cheap in 2017. You need to adjust with the times. AK prices are what they are because enough people, even if it is a minority, want them even with sanctions in place.

If they didn't then prices would plummet which is what happened to AR's because of the same situation.

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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
Out side the internet most shooters care little about the AK .
the factory ammo most commonly seen makes most AKs a 3 or 4 inch rifle.
That's great, AK buyers don't care.

If they did then demand and prices would drop but it hasn't so your statement is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
Face it you can have a AR 10 tyoe rifle in 308 that will shot 1" easy all day long with basic brass ammo for less than a WASR right now and if you buy good 7.62x39 the shooting cost is about the same.
As mentioned above, AK buyers don't care.

Also I wouldn't trust an AR-10 to begin with let alone a sub-$600 one. I will spend more money for better piece of mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
Im sorry but if I have $700 to spend and I remotely care about accuracy and want some more range and I see a POS WASR with rough finish crooked sights needing a optic mount and will be 1.5" on a good day with good ammo or a AR 10 type that is more accurate and has a much more effective range at about the same weight and 1" capable ammo is the same or less and its ready to take a optic and has about a million aftermarket dodads to buy as well as available spare parts Id have to choose the AR 10 .
now factor in a AR 15 can be built for half the cost and who is lining up to buy a AK 47 for $700 on up ?????? Very few .
Yawn......as I said above AK buyers don't care......

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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
If restrictions lift and we see more AKs coming in the prices will drop some. I think the AK should be about $425 for a basic WASR .
Yea, that isn't going to happen.

Only the biggest POS AK's like the AMD-63 from Clearview Investments or used Romanian AK sellers who still have 2007 prices in their mind are selling them for that low. Even the RAS and C39v2 don't go that low.

Even if the sanctions were gone Chinese AK's are routinely in the $600 and up range. The Type 81 rifle out of China right now is going for $1000 up in Canada.

Last edited by Scott7891; 12-05-2017 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:01 PM   #115
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^Agree with everything you said.
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Old 12-05-2017, 05:46 PM   #116
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Last edited by wormraper; 12-05-2017 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:08 PM   #117
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I'll just add that back in 2009-2010 when WASRs were at their cheapest, they were being built from mostly original military surplus parts by Cugir. Really their only costs were the new barrel, receiver, and assembly/finishing. Today, WASRs are built from mostly new production parts, so Cugir is having to make trunnions, bolt groups, gas blocks and so on.
Also, the lowest QC point, with the vast majority of canted sights and poorly machined magwells was back late 2008-2009.

I am sure if Cugir and Century knocked down their QC again, they could reduce WASR prices by $50-$100. However, the American market has spoken, and it is quite clear that most buyers would rather spend a little more and get a more cosmetically attractive rifle.

You may think a price should be this or not that. Hell, I think we'd all enjoy being able to set our own prices on the things we buy right?
But the reality is, the WASR is selling fine right now in the $600-$650 range.
Ditto for Arsenals.

For whatever reason, people seem to prefer spending $650 on a roughly made imported AK than on a perfectly machined US AR10 right now.

If WASRs were to drop to $400 again, Century's distributers would sell out in a matter of days. Then those guns would start popping up on Gunbroker, and we'd be right back to $600+ prices again while Century waited 6 months for another batch of imports to make it in.

This is exactly what happened with the Arsenal SLR-107R.
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Old 12-05-2017, 06:45 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Scott7891 View Post
Even if the sanctions were gone Chinese AK's are routinely in the $600 and up range. The Type 81 rifle out of China right now is going for $1000 up in Canada.
If the sanctions were gone, the Chinese would be backfilling our markets with rifles priced to beat everyone else's.

Canada really doesn't have the gun market we have here, and their prices reflect this.


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You should choose another file format, as "webp" only works in Google's browser.

( nothing shows up for anyone using a non-Google browser )
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Old 12-05-2017, 07:07 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
If the sanctions were gone, the Chinese would be backfilling our markets with rifles priced to beat everyone else's.

Canada really doesn't have the gun market we have here, and their prices reflect this.



You should choose another file format, as "webp" only works in Google's browser.

( nothing shows up for anyone using a non-Google browser )
ugg, I hate webp.... drives me nuts if I don't see the extension.

Last edited by wormraper; 12-05-2017 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:30 PM   #120
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Drives you nuts? Let me tell you about formating issue woes sometime hehe.
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Old 12-05-2017, 09:57 PM   #121
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Yawn......as I said above AK buyers don't care......
Yeap and the fact that AK's are sold about one to every 5000 ARs tells you why the AK market for a US made copy of the same old shit is not great because there are not a huge amount of them . If it was then there would be cheaper guns doe to higher volume if they were available and if not the market would support a US AK . Right now its not great .
US Gun makers care little what AK buyers want is the issue because there is not enough them to make it worth the trouble in the price range they have to compete in for due to low volume . Look at a mini 30 or 14 not a lot of sales .
If they were not tooled up they would not come to market today . there likely harder to make than a AK.


Quote:
If the sanctions were gone, the Chinese would be backfilling our markets with rifles priced to beat everyone else's.
Boy is that not the truth . I agree.
Even the AR market would get hit. A lot of the stuff is made there already .

I said I may be off on the years I stated . But not very many other rifles have gone from $300 to $1000 in the last 15 years or so . 15 years or less is when most of my stuff was bought or built AK wise.
I bought a used but likely unfired 308 Saiga off the rack the last day the old FFL forms had the choice of rifle or pistol on a bare receiver for $275 as I recall I can find that year as I have a gunco thread on what a POS it is.

Basic rifles like bolt actions are close to the same for say a savage and some cases like rugers we see cheaper offerings ( cheaper made also ).

My point was its not inflation that's the driving force ofr the increase in AKs and I stated why .
Don't want a AR don't buy one . Im not a huge fan but I wont be the guy guy crying in 2027 when there to expensive like AK guys are now . I got my AKs Im getting my ARs now .

AS Far as the AR 10 I pieced a cheaper one together for well under $600 that as good or likely better than a DPMS since its 90% DPMS the barrel is all mine however and it will shoot fine .


Im not taking it or some POS WASR into any battle so honestly I don't really care as long as its reasonably reliable .
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Old 12-05-2017, 10:06 PM   #122
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For whatever reason, people seem to prefer spending $650 on a roughly made imported AK than on a perfectly machined US AR10 right now.
I thought about that after my post the other day .

I think its the cost of ammo .
Cheap ammo and guns is why the SKS AK ever got popular here in 7.62x39 .
I bought a Russian SKS at a show once because it was new and $75 and I didn't even know what a 7.62x39 was but for $110 I got a beautiful all milled rifle and 500 rounds of norinco ammo so I was a big 7.62x39 fan suddenly .

A 308 is not cheap to shoot I have I thing 9 of them now.
A guy who is on a budget that is stuck with a $600 or under rifle is not going to want to shoot 50 cnet or more each ammo if he could afford more expensive ammo he would get a nicer gun first .
I sure the hell cant afford to go through a 1000 rounds of 308 in a weekend screwing around .

they also have more recoil and noise so there not as fun to shoot high volume .
hats part of why the 223 AR is the number 1 selling gun right now .

Frankly id prefer to have the money for 308 ammo and shoot my 308 AK more .
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Old 12-05-2017, 11:56 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Scott7891 View Post
That is all anecdotal. Not saying stuff doesn't happen but some like you blow it out of proportion like it is common. I have Arsenal rifles and have had none of those issues. Many others don't. Do lemons happen? Yes, but nowhere near Century's.
Scott, ive hardly blown it out of proportion. Every dealing i have had with an Arsenal product had some type of issue a $1000 plus rifle should not have.
While im sure some do come in perfect, a good amount do not.
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Old 12-06-2017, 02:00 AM   #124
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Tanker2000:
In case you're not already aware of these, notice problems with assembly "quality control" with I.O. AKs.

A few videos on Youtube at guys' shooting ranges depict malfunctions on very new (I.O.) guns, and Not just stovepipe jams.

Check "AK Oper. Union" with Rob Ski on Youtube to see comparisons of internal wear after 3.500, or 5,000 rds. in a variety of domestic, vs. imported AK derivatives.
The often harsh external tests don't produce premature metal peening, bolt lug wear etc seen inside some of the guns with a fairly moderate round count.

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Old 12-06-2017, 11:47 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
The profit on AR'S is low because of lots of competing company's making nearly the same thing by the thousands.

IF there was a market big enough that several large companies were involved then prices would drop.
That might affect margins, but it doesnt affect manufacturing costs. The AR was decades ahead of its time in the sense that sophisticated and cheap CNC equipment was decades away. It wasnt until fairly recently that a small shop could set up an operation cranking out uppers and lowers on minimal investment staffed by minimum wage +50% operators.
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:13 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
If the sanctions were gone, the Chinese would be backfilling our markets with rifles priced to beat everyone else's.

Canada really doesn't have the gun market we have here, and their prices reflect this.
Theres more to it than that. Some stats I read indicated that the firearms market is slightly larger up here if taken on a per capita basis. I cant quote it since I cant remember where I read it so take that as an anecdote.

To give you guys some examples ;
A norinco 1911 costs about 350,
a type 81 is 1k (and apparantly sold out, going for 1.3k in the classifieds),
type 97s went for about 1k but are almost half that now second hand because they had such a bad reputation
1500 rd case of m43 chinese is about 340 with free shipping
Norinco ARs are around 600 which is a good 300 cheaper than any north american budget gun

This is all in syrupdollars. Bear in mind, that any retail purchase also pays 13% sales tax and gets raped on shipping unless the dealer covers that for you.

This could be a little out of date since its all of the top of my head and I dont pay attention to any of this stuff except for the cost of 7.62x39.

As far as you guys are concerned, I dont see the chinese weapon sanctions going away. The manufacturers certainly wont push for it, and the AR guys dont care so there goes your lobbying potential.
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Old 12-06-2017, 12:19 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Orpheus View Post
Theres more to it than that. Some stats I read indicated that the firearms market is slightly larger up here if taken on a per capita basis. I cant quote it since I cant remember where I read it so take that as an anecdote.

To give you guys some examples ;
A norinco 1911 costs about 350,
a type 81 is 1k (and apparantly sold out, going for 1.3k in the classifieds),
type 97s went for about 1k but are almost half that now second hand because they had such a bad reputation
1500 rd case of m43 chinese is about 340 with free shipping
Norinco ARs are around 600 which is a good 300 cheaper than any north american budget gun

This is all in syrupdollars. Bear in mind, that any retail purchase also pays 13% sales tax and gets raped on shipping unless the dealer covers that for you.

This could be a little out of date since its all of the top of my head and I dont pay attention to any of this stuff except for the cost of 7.62x39.

As far as you guys are concerned, I dont see the chinese weapon sanctions going away. The manufacturers certainly wont push for it, and the AR guys dont care so there goes your lobbying potential.
Canada vs USA firearm statistics>>
Likely that handgun sales/ownership are more common in the USA vs long guns in Canada perhaps.

Quote:
Total number of civilian guns:
•Canada has 9,950,000.
•The U.S. has more than 27 times as many: 270,000,000.

Guns per person:
•Canada reports 30.8 firearms per 100 people. The country ranks 13 worldwide for firearms per capita, according to a report published by The Washington Post in September.
•The U.S. has 88.8. It ranks No. 1.
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Old 12-06-2017, 05:55 PM   #128
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Its possible. I'd like to know how they actually calculated this. Its a well known fact that most people who had stuff before the 90s when they implemented the current laws regarding registration etc were non compliant. They really have no clue how much of it is up here, they only know how much gets sold thru standard retailers and how many restricted/registered guns get transferred.
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Old 12-06-2017, 06:03 PM   #129
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Its possible. I'd like to know how they actually calculated this. Its a well known fact that most people who had stuff before the 90s when they implemented the current laws regarding registration etc were non compliant. They really have no clue how much of it is up here, they only know how much gets sold thru standard retailers and how many restricted/registered guns get transferred.
They are estimates., but indicative of the firearm numbers. Pretty well known that the USA leads the world in firearm ownership and by and large some of the most liberal gun ownership regulations.
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:08 PM   #130
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That might affect margins, but it doesnt affect manufacturing costs. The AR was decades ahead of its time in the sense that sophisticated and cheap CNC equipment was decades away. It wasnt until fairly recently that a small shop could set up an operation cranking out uppers and lowers on minimal investment staffed by minimum wage +50% operators.
Yea I can agree with most of that .
the same CNC machines we have now the Russians and every one else do also to some degree so a AK can also be produced with much much lower man hours than before .

Shits not made in caves that's for sure .

The more you can make the closer you can sell that item to cost of production and still make pay roll, cover overhead costs and take a check home .

you got to sell a lot OF AKs to get even remotely close to down to what the profit per piece is for AR parts .
Think about it a AR barrel extension can be sold for $12 and the company and the distributer is making money . And these are not old stock that's sitting shit was sold out and came back at least a few times . there getting cranked out by the thousands every day .

I saw stripped AR bolts a few weeks ago for $16. A AK bolt might be a bit more involved but not much on a CNC machine. you would need to produce a million bolts to be able to get close to that price and keep the lights on .


Were seeing some things chap on the AK side . Barrels is a example . cant be much profit in a AK barrel at under $100 . lot of US AK barrels sold .

for US AKs to be cheap they need to sell a lot of them in a lower price range . A US AK is not going to have all that heart and soul BS that draws some guys to a Commy gun . The rifle needs to stand up on its own as a good deal or not .
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Old 12-06-2017, 07:34 PM   #131
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They are estimates., but indicative of the firearm numbers. Pretty well known that the USA leads the world in firearm ownership and by and large some of the most liberal gun ownership regulations.
Not to be argumentative, but usually whenever I encounter those kinds of statistics being thrown around, its usually the preamble to some kind of gun grabber argument, so I always suspect that the numbers are inflated.

Doesnt matter, my whole point was just that "the market" being smaller up here isnt the only real reason that prices are what they are. You guys talk about "panics" as these economic or political seasons or cycles. Up here, its a mild version of "panic" at all times across the board. Between the laws changing arbitrarily, stupid publicity stunts, false flags and simple availability, right thinking gun owners up here don't take what's still available for granted.
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