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Old 07-28-2013, 03:50 AM   #1
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Default Muzzle Loading Snipers

I was thinking, everyone has a stake in this fight. Plain and simple. Some of you know this better than I do, you've been at the game longer than I have and some are just that much sharper. Getting off track...

My point is, we need everyone. I was thinking about muzzle loaders and quite frankly they really are "one shot, one kill" so I was thinking how to best utilize a professional behind flint or percussion. I came up with snipers.

I have a simple question, is there any muzzle loading rifle that could compete realistically with a modern sniper rifle? Lets not get picky with the .50 BMG. Lets keep it low key, maybe a 30-06, or a .308?

The person behind said rifle would have to be damn good at what he or she does, and that would be the one shot and kill whatever it is they were aiming at because with a muzzle loader you damn sure aren't going to get that second shot.
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Originally Posted by Mandaree36 - 11/2/2013 View Post
One who cannot march in peace will not march in war. It too requires getting off the couch....

The reason there are more Muslims than Indians is because we haven't started playing Cowboys and Muslims... yet.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:08 AM   #2
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This is the silliest post I've seen in a while.

Jeeeeussss.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK5Gc...=TLCdewR0RhYFo
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The AK is a mans weapon, Unfortunately you don't qualify.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:22 AM   #3
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I don't know shit about muzzle loaders Dave, so I figured you or Ian would pipe up. But you cant sit there with a straight face and tell me I am wrong in the facts that:

1. Everyone has a stake in it.

and

2. We need everyone we can get.
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Originally Posted by Mandaree36 - 11/2/2013 View Post
One who cannot march in peace will not march in war. It too requires getting off the couch....

The reason there are more Muslims than Indians is because we haven't started playing Cowboys and Muslims... yet.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:32 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider View Post
I don't know shit about muzzle loaders Dave, so I figured you or Ian would pipe up. But you cant sit there with a straight face and tell me I am wrong in the facts that:

1. Everyone has a stake in it.

and

2. We need everyone we can get.
For What???
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:33 AM   #5
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Muzzleloaders can shoot amazing distances, not your TC hawkins and the ilk, but the long range game was around in the 19th century.

but those types of muzzle loaders are a rare breed and the guns who shoot them today are even rarer.

Black powder had a large cloud of white smoke that screams "Hey,over here. Shoot me first." Not a problem on the early battlefield, big problem in the modern smokeless battlefield.

You just might as well run right at them, painted blue and screaming "Freedom!"
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:38 AM   #6
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For What???
Rider is firmly in "the upcoming collapse of the US/ the revolution is next Thursday" camp of guys who hang out here.

I'm firmly in the "I like to build and shoot AKs" camp.
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Old 07-28-2013, 06:16 AM   #7
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A modern inline can shoot very tight groups very consistently,out to ranges that muzzleloaders of old could not. Using sabots and copper jaketed bullets,and pellet charges,and primers for ignition. Why? Consistency.All those things can be made very consistently today.The shooter is the only inconsistency in the formula,and is usually the fault when inaccuracy occurs.
A lot of guys around here have gone to inlines,solely,as a go-to deer rifle,instead of shotguns and handguns.They want to range an inline can give in open corn fields. I know several farmer's daughters who regularly take deer at 250 yards. A Carlos Hathcock sniper rifle? No. But I sure would not want them taking a poke at me.
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Old 07-28-2013, 06:31 AM   #8
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I'm not inclined to be in the sights of a muzzle loader shooter who knows what he's doing. Particularly if he's shooting from sticks.

Make no mistake, the percussion lock guys can do some serious shooting.
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Old 07-28-2013, 07:44 AM   #9
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Ive hunted deer with an inline muzzleloader for probably 12 plus years now. I have a TC encore and shoot 200grn sabots in front of 90grns of triple seven. It's a deadly SOB on whitetail, and Ive killed quite a few with it.
That said it's no sniper rifle, oh inside of 250 yds you could make a killshot on a human sized target but compare that with a good quality bolt gun with decent optics that could easily double that range it's really no comparison at all.
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Old 07-28-2013, 07:50 AM   #10
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Look up "Berdan's Sharpshooters"
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:00 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Teague View Post
Muzzleloaders can shoot amazing distances, not your TC hawkins and the ilk, but the long range game was around in the 19th century.

but those types of muzzle loaders are a rare breed and the guns who shoot them today are even rarer.

Black powder had a large cloud of white smoke that screams "Hey,over here. Shoot me first." Not a problem on the early battlefield, big problem in the modern smokeless battlefield.

You just might as well run right at them, painted blue and screaming "Freedom!"
Good point, but before someone tries, smokeless won't work, and they don't make smoke hiders. Might be good for your last dying shot.
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:03 AM   #12
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there are likely many out there that can start a fire with two sticks but a couple Bics are easier to fit in my pocket. best to yield to progress and move on.
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:24 AM   #13
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there are likely many out there that can start a fire with two sticks but a couple Bics are easier to fit in my pocket. best to yield to progress and move on.
Damn you! I want the glory of riding into battle on a horse... Or standing in a big long line to fire a volly with thousands of other folks who don't know what century we are in while facing down machine guns and armored vehicles. I might find some blue paint, too.
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:30 AM   #14
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Damn you! I want the glory of riding into battle on a horse... Or standing in a big long line to fire a volly with thousands of other folks who don't know what century we are in while facing down machine guns and armored vehicles. I might find some blue paint, too.

you do that and let me know how it works for ya !

when i get my ticket to Fantasy Island i'll be packing Ma Deuce and heading for the Alamo.
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:34 AM   #15
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I don't think it's a dumb post at all, and CWI snipers made some pretty amazing shots. There may be a time when a bp gun is all you have left. At least you can make your own components for it when your pile of Wolf runs out.
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Old 07-28-2013, 10:41 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rider View Post
I was thinking, everyone has a stake in this fight. Plain and simple. Some of you know this better than I do, you've been at the game longer than I have and some are just that much sharper. Getting off track...

My point is, we need everyone. I was thinking about muzzle loaders and quite frankly they really are "one shot, one kill" so I was thinking how to best utilize a professional behind flint or percussion. I came up with snipers.

I have a simple question, is there any muzzle loading rifle that could compete realistically with a modern sniper rifle? Lets not get picky with the .50 BMG. Lets keep it low key, maybe a 30-06, or a .308?

The person behind said rifle would have to be damn good at what he or she does, and that would be the one shot and kill whatever it is they were aiming at because with a muzzle loader you damn sure aren't going to get that second shot.
I don't know much about muzzle loaders but to my surprise google revealed one guy claiming to have shot 1.25" 3 shot group at 500 yards (top of page 15):

http://ultimatefirearms.com/pdfs/pre...ting102011.pdf

I would say that is better than my Savage or Remington 700 in 30-06 and .308.
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next son of a bitch that starts a thread about "gouging" or "greed" should be permanently banned. you fukers fell asleep at the wheel. deal with it. stand your ass in line at walmart, grab your three boxes and flip it on the net or stick in mason jars and bury it. until you grasp the concept of supply and demand as it relates to ignorant buyers just quit bitching about it. damn if i ain't tired of hearing this shit.
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Old 07-28-2013, 11:36 AM   #17
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i just don't look good painted blue.
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:01 PM   #18
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Look up the Whitworth sniper rifle as used by the C.S.A. if you want a muzzle loading sniper rifle- and yes, they do make a repro, but like the originals were, they ARE expensive and rare.
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:34 PM   #19
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But nobody has the machined octagonal bullets needed for the Whitworth like they used in period.

I never think of inlines as they are Satan on a stick and have no soul as a firearm.

People that use them don't grasp the point of hunting with a muzzleloader and instead use an abomination that meets the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law.
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Old 07-28-2013, 12:58 PM   #20
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It twas a hot Texas evening and John Wayne Rider-Rambo was hiding silently in the sparse cover as he watched the DHSS stormtroopers working their way to his house. John Wayne Rider-Rambo's heart started racing but he quickly brought it back down again through controlled breathing, this was no time to panic; he would get only one shot and he must not miss. I will let them advance just past that little depression and they are mine he thought as he looked down the barrel of his .876 howitzer rocketjet sniper rifle.He slowly thumbed back the hammer and made sure that the cap was securely on the nipple, this was no time to leave anything to chance.

As the troops moved past the small depression John Wayne Rider-Rambo took aim at the lead trooper carrying the saw, as he started gently pulling the trigger he wondered what a two pound lead slug zipping along at the speed of light would do to a man. Just as he applied more pressure and the trigger was at it's breaking point a blood curdling scream came floating across the field "Riiiiiiiider" .... damn he thought as he started to get up, don't mom know better than to bother me when I'm killing Nazis? Oh well, he thought as he ran home, if I can't grease a nazi bastard I'll at least console myself with a glass of chocolate milk.
.
.

.
.
.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:16 PM   #21
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Funny shit Tomcat, but kiss my ass bro. LMAO
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Quote:
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One who cannot march in peace will not march in war. It too requires getting off the couch....

The reason there are more Muslims than Indians is because we haven't started playing Cowboys and Muslims... yet.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:17 PM   #22
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the few long range BP rifles I have seen were pretty long , heavy and unwieldy


I'm just going to attack from a chariot draw by a starving rabid 40 wiener dog hitch, 60 foot pike wearing nothing but a light coat of LSA and a feather boa
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:21 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Teague View Post
But nobody has the machined octagonal bullets needed for the Whitworth like they used in period.

I never think of inlines as they are Satan on a stick and have no soul as a firearm.

People that use them don't grasp the point of hunting with a muzzleloader and instead use an abomination that meets the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law.
Lyman has the molds to roll your own elongated balls for the .451 Navy Arms Whitworth replicas, but the replicas themselves are $1550-2000+ if you can find one.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/b....php?entryID=2

There is a realistic capacity which cheap, unregistered, and plentiful black powder firearms could perform in a SHTF situation, that of the WW2 OSS liberator pistol. In other words, an extreme short range, single use surprise/ambush weapon to obtain an enemy's better weapons.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:26 PM   #24
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The IRA snipers, known as "One Shot Paddy" used whatever they could get their hands on, with devistating effect to the worthless brit coward assholes invading their country. They eventually got their hands on some Barrett .50 caliber rifles, and fucked up those faggots good and proper.

ZIP! Right through the armor.



Point being, use the best you have, while you have it, until you have something better. I'm pretty sure a simple Mosin Nagant would be alot better than a ML, so there you have it.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:31 PM   #25
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muzzle loading sniper rifles, right next to anti-tank dogs on the deadliness scale.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jubinizzle View Post
The IRA snipers, known as "One Shot Paddy" used whatever they could get their hands on, with devistating effect to the worthless brit coward assholes invading their country. They eventually got their hands on some Barrett .50 caliber rifles, and fucked up those faggots good and proper.

ZIP! Right through the armor.



Point being, use the best you have, while you have it, until you have something better. I'm pretty sure a simple Mosin Nagant would be alot better than a ML, so there you have it.
True enough, I was wondering about it all, and it did prompt an interesting discussion minus the ribbing I'm getting. It's all good though.
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One who cannot march in peace will not march in war. It too requires getting off the couch....

The reason there are more Muslims than Indians is because we haven't started playing Cowboys and Muslims... yet.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:37 PM   #27
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Lyman has the molds to roll your own elongated balls for the .451 Navy Arms Whitworth replicas, but the replicas themselves are $1550-2000+ if you can find one.
Does that look like the machined octagonal bullet that was manufactured and imported from England for use with the Whitworth sniper rifle???

Nope, Just a standard bullet. (The Whitworth has a octagonal bore instead of rifling and was meant to use machined octagonal bullet that gave great accuracy out to 1000 yards)
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:41 PM   #28
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Or that we had camps.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:41 PM   #29
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I don't think it's a dumb post at all, and CWI snipers made some pretty amazing shots...
No one's saying that they didn't. However, at the time, muzzle loading rifles were cutting edge technology and the most advanced firearm that might be fired back in their direction.

These days, unless you're firing at 1 guy, have the drop on him completely, (and even if you do, you better pray that you manage to make that 1 shot you've got a kill shot), you'd be a damned idiot to fire a muzzle loader at anyone who's got even a somewhat modern firearm. Hell, he could be packing a Winchester 1873 and he'd still have one hell of an advantage.

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...There may be a time when a bp gun is all you have left. At least you can make your own components for it when your pile of Wolf runs out.
Sure, but that time is decades away, at least. We may eventually begin using bp muzzle loaders again, but it'll be out of desperation, not choice.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:42 PM   #30
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If people were willing to spend as much effort as they do in thinking up ways to fight the political battle as they are with the CW2 ideas, we might just have a good country again, with no warzone...think about that.

We can win a political fight long before any sniper will with his muzzle loader. Also if it comes down to a man, and his muzzle loader VS the Gov storm troopers, how fucked are we?
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:47 PM   #31
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Let me take a second to answer Rider's core question directly...

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I have a simple question, is there any muzzle loading rifle that could compete realistically with a modern sniper rifle?
Not even fucking remotely. Nor is there a mid-19th century cannon that could "compete realistically" with a howitzer from WW1, let alone a modern field gun.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:48 PM   #32
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The IRA snipers, known as "One Shot Paddy" used whatever they could get their hands on, with devistating effect to the worthless brit coward assholes invading their country.
That is the second silliest statement of this thread.

The Normans invaded Ireland in 1171 after winning England in 1066. They took control of Ireland in 1171.

That's right, they became subjects of the English crown in 1171 not 1971.

They lived under English rule until the Act of Union in 1707 made them part of the newly formed UK.

It's called history.You might try it some times.

P.S. Look up my last name under a Northern Ireland search before you reply.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:53 PM   #33
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Does that look like the machined octagonal bullet that was manufactured and imported from England for use with the Whitworth sniper rifle???

Nope, Just a standard bullet. (The Whitworth has a octagonal bore instead of rifling and was meant to use machined octagonal bullet that gave great accuracy out to 1000 yards)
Not to labor the point Dave, but they actually had two types of Whitworth bullets during the Civil War. The Whitworth's bore is hexagonal, and the original hard alloy English bullets were of the same hexagonal shape. But under the extreme shortages of the Confederate supply system, cylindrical cast balls of a softer alloy were also commonly used. From Wikipedia:
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Two types of bullets were used in the Whitworth rifle, hexagonal and cylindrical. The cylindrical bullets had a small hollow base which would expand and grip the hexagonal sides of the barrel, which required that the bullets be made out of very soft lead. The cylindrical bullet, however, easily upsets into the hexagonal bore under the influence of the explosion of the charge of between 80 and 90 grains of fine rifle powder used for this particular firearm - recovered bullets fired from a Whitworth rifle are as hexagonal as their factory-made counterparts. The hexagonal form bullet did not need to expand to properly grip the barrel, and therefore could be made out of a harder alloy than pure lead.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitworth_rifle
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:58 PM   #34
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True enough, I was wondering about it all, and it did prompt an interesting discussion minus the ribbing I'm getting. It's all good though.
Muzzleloaders are a joke on the modern battlefield. They have limited penetration and velocity, they put out way too much smoke, they are slow to reload and they are more easily rendered inert by moisture than a metallic cartridge.

If you have decent eyes and a limited budget then go to a gun shop or show and get you a Mosin Nagant with a nice condition bore, try both Bulgy and Russian surplus to determine what your rifle likes best and buy a few crates of ammo.
Go to the range once a month and practice shooting at various distances and wind speeds until you learn the ballistics of your rifle, then use paint and an artist brush to mark your rear sight for the various distances(100, 200, 300, 400 500 yards)

If you have bad eyes or a better budget look for an older Remington,Winchester or Savage bolt rifle in a popular caliber like .243, .270, .308, 30-06 then find some ammo that your rifle likes, stock up on it and practice. Prvi makes some damn good ammo and it is usually a fair amount cheaper than US made stuff if you are on a budget.
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Old 07-28-2013, 02:06 PM   #35
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Tom, at best, I have an interest in muzzleloaders. When it comes to actual sniping, I am no sniper. I'm a rifleman/saw operator by comparison. My brother War would be the sniper.
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