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Old 11-14-2016, 01:36 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
It's actually designed to keep the bolt carrier group from rearranging your body parts when a grenade is launched.



Also keep in mind that the military can afford to replace Ivan the grenadier's AK when it breaks, and wear is expected.

Any AK with a similar setup would likely have cracked around the same time frame.
I'd have to agree with you there. Wonder what would have happened if the nut / bolt was kept in the whole time?
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Old 11-14-2016, 01:43 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Mrgunsngear View Post
Wonder what would have happened if the nut / bolt was kept in the whole time?
You mean like was just asked in post #21?
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Old 11-14-2016, 02:17 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
It's actually designed to keep the bolt carrier group from rearranging your body parts when a grenade is launched.

Also keep in mind that the military can afford to replace Ivan the grenadier's AK when it breaks, and wear is expected.
So, how did the Russians managed to lob their under-barrel grenades (GP-25/30) and all without those extras "improvements"? And with 1mm receiver nonetheless.
I'm beginning to think that the reason Yugo AK's in general are more beefier is because their Metallurgy was inferior. You usually make something bulkier in mass to make up for weaker metal, something like cast slides on Ruger handguns, Hi-Point, etc.
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Old 11-14-2016, 02:34 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Bacon&AlcoholDistributor View Post
So, how did the Russians managed to lob their under-barrel grenades (GP-25/30) and all without those extras "improvements"? And with 1mm receiver nonetheless.
I'm beginning to think that the reason Yugo AK's in general are more beefier is because their Metallurgy was inferior. You usually make something bulkier in mass to make up for weaker metal, something like cast slides on Ruger handguns, Hi-Point, etc.
Rifle grenades exert pressures through the rifle and are fired using high powered blanks. These high powered blanks put a lot of energy into the BCG when the grenade blank is fired to launch the rifle grenade.

The dedicated grenade launcher rounds are fired by their own charges, from their own barrels and has a lower recoil impulse.
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Old 11-14-2016, 02:54 PM   #40
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I have had issues for years over numerous deployments with all Yugo AK types. This comes as no surprise to me: I got fried pretty good over on the other forum years back for saying that the Yugo AK was not perhaps the best AK out there and rated it towards the bottom of the AK's right about the same level as an Egyptian AK.
I used to have great appreciation for Yugo AKs when they were imported back in the 80's as they were the nicest looking and superior fit and finish and thought the guns were the best of the AK world for a time- but after my first deployments I found it to be quite the opposite that they were actually near the bottom of the list at least for the places I encountered them in.
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Old 11-14-2016, 03:04 PM   #41
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Interesting. The Zastava firearms have been fairly widely used and deployed in various countries and conflicts. No feedback of on poor performance from my reading. After building a few dozen of their various models the fit, finish and materials in the components all appear to be of high quality. the imported kits from the Balkans Conflict/War show very heavy use but show no signs of parts or receiver failures.

As to the recent N-PAP, O-PAP, or other M85/92 pistols I cannot say. Though I have reworked a couple of those but not a high round count.
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Old 11-14-2016, 03:49 PM   #42
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Hey Rob Ski...you still giving this away or is it now considered "unsafe"?
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:09 PM   #43
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The Serbs hate Americans because we allowed the muslims to kill them and helped the muslims in the country once known as Yugoslavia. So the Serbs revenge is to sell us crappy AKs. Sure their military grade AKs are good but the stuff they sell us is junk.
I'm just speculating, I could be wrong but from the amount of failed NPAPs I've seen I may be correct.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:16 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorincoKid View Post
I'd be curious to know if just removing/not using the lock mechanism would reduce the damage in the area...



.
That is an interesting question. I've previously removed the lock mechanism on both my M77 and M90. It's not only annoying, but its unnecessary.

-Dave

ps ... I have considered welding up the holes ... I would assume that the stress cracks are due in no small part to the location of the lock mechanism hole in relation to its placement near the end of the receiver.

pss ... obviously as others have theorized in the thread ... id say this is a pretty solid, shade tree explanation of what we are seeing.

Last edited by TexasDave; 11-14-2016 at 04:28 PM.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:43 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
Rifle grenades exert pressures through the rifle and are fired using high powered blanks. These high powered blanks put a lot of energy into the BCG when the grenade blank is fired to launch the rifle grenade.

The dedicated grenade launcher rounds are fired by their own charges, from their own barrels and has a lower recoil impulse.
While some that is true, the basic law of physics still play the same role on both rifles. GP-25/30 is like a mortar and so is blank firing rifles grenades.
The only real difference would be is, if the grenade was rocket propelled and exhaust would bypass freely without encountering resistance (back-pressure), similar to most rocket launchers.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:48 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorincoKid View Post
I'd be curious to know if just removing/not using the lock mechanism would reduce the damage in the area...
Ok, i'm not storing files used in videos already, because i'm constantly running out of space on my drives, but i was able to dig out picture from 10/24/16, this is from 4000 rounds episode, when nut decided to "jump the ship". This is picture taken on that day. Notice that crack is already present - not as big yet, but it is there.

If i had to speculate I would say this: i was complaining about weak recoil spring. Now when i think about it, it is possible that weak recoil spring contributed to excessive pounding in the rear end of the receiver.
Fragile by design, area around the hole for button mechanism cracked.
This allowed button mechanism nut to start spinning and go lose.
Rest is just progression of forces working on the rear end from absorbing recoil...
Classic domino effect of small things failing and leading to larger problems...

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Old 11-14-2016, 04:49 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Bacon&AlcoholDistributor View Post
While some that is true, the basic law of physics still play the same role on both rifles. GP-25/30 is like a mortar and so is blank firing rifles grenades.
The only real difference would be is, if the grenade was rocket propelled and exhaust would bypass freely without encountering resistance (back-pressure), similar to most rocket launchers.
DOH.,disregard, Brain drain., wrong information

Last edited by AKBLUE; 11-14-2016 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:01 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by AKBLUE View Post
The bolt & carrier are not used for under barrel grenade launchers. The momentum & mass that can batter the rear block of the rifle is totally different.
My understanding was that blank that is used in firing grenade would cycle the action the same as regal round. Otherwise it will damage op rod/trunnion/spring withing a shot or two.
Yugo rifles (AK's) that actually designed for lobbing grenades has a gas shut off valve and it did not cycle the action at all, so the receiver shouldn't have been beaten up as you suggest.
This type of dust cover that supposedly was designed to keep cover and rear trunnion intact wasn't actually designed for NPAP type rifles but a carryover from OPAP and actual military AK's.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:03 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon&AlcoholDistributor View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
Rifle grenades exert pressures through the rifle and are fired using high powered blanks. These high powered blanks put a lot of energy into the BCG when the grenade blank is fired to launch the rifle grenade.

The dedicated grenade launcher rounds are fired by their own charges, from their own barrels and has a lower recoil impulse.
While some that is true, the basic law of physics still play the same role on both rifles. GP-25/30 is like a mortar and so is blank firing rifles grenades.
The only real difference would be is, if the grenade was rocket propelled and exhaust would bypass freely without encountering resistance (back-pressure), similar to most rocket launchers.
Do you even remember the question you asked?

The GP25 launch does not directly impact the BCG ( The grenade launching blank does directly impact the BCG, for which reason the receiver has a hole cut in it's rear block [ to hold a retention aid ])

Yes, GP25 GOES WHOOOMP!

No, GP25 does not stress the BCG whatsoever in doing so.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:06 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
Do you even remember the question you asked?

The GP25 launch does not directly impact the BCG ( The grenade launching blank does directly impact the BCG, for which reason the receiver has a hole cut in it's rear block [ to hold a retention aid ])

Yes, GP25 GOES WHOOOMP!

No, GP25 does not stress the BCG whatsoever in doing so.
Read above, firing grenades does not cycle the action.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:09 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon&AlcoholDistributor View Post
My understanding was that blank that is used in firing grenade would cycle the action the same as regal round. Otherwise it will damage op rod/trunnion/spring withing a shot or two.
Yugo rifles (AK's) that actually designed for lobbing grenades has a gas shut off valve and it did not cycle the action at all, so the receiver shouldn't have been beaten up as you suggest.
This type of dust cover that supposedly was designed to keep cover and rear trunnion intact wasn't actually designed for NPAP type rifles but a carryover from OPAP and actual military AK's.
You are correct I was thinking wrong. I know better but brain drain on how the system operates in grenade launch mode. I took enough apart and replaced parts etc to know better.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:15 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon&AlcoholDistributor View Post
Read above, firing grenades does not cycle the action.
I am well aware of how it works.

I'm also aware the gun was designed to fire 7.62s39 projectiles - not rifle grenades with "maximum safe" blanks.

The bolt is still highly stressed ( even though the gas is shut off ) due to the forces involved.

It is these stressors ( and a bunch of broken legs & faces ) that led the Yugos to ( among other modifications ) the installation of the recoil spring retention lock in rifles they intended to launch rifle grenades.



Tell me, oh wise one, will firing a 7.62x39 round break your thigh?

No?

Firing a rifle grenade will, if you're stupid enough to prop the butt stock on your thigh when firing it off.


There's a crazy shitload more forces at work on the rifle when firing a rifle grenade than when firing a rifle cartridge.



The lesser forces of the GP25 are channeled through the barrel, receiver and butt stock.

With the Yugoslavian M70s ( and related ) intended for firing rifle grenades, the forces all impact the BCG first.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:29 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
I am well aware of how it works.

I'm also aware the gun was designed to fire 7.62s39 projectiles - not rifle grenades with "maximum safe" blanks.

The bolt is still highly stressed ( even though the gas is shut off ) due to the forces involved.

It is these stressors ( and a bunch of broken legs & faces ) that led the Yugos to ( among other modifications ) the installation of the recoil spring retention lock in rifles they intended to launch rifle grenades.



Tell me, oh wise one, will firing a 7.62x39 round break your thigh?

No?

Firing a rifle grenade will, if you're stupid enough to prop the butt stock on your thigh when firing it off.


There's a crazy shitload more forces at work on the rifle when firing a rifle grenade than when firing a rifle cartridge.



The lesser forces of the GP25 are channeled through the barrel, receiver and butt stock.

With the Yugoslavian M70s ( and related ) intended for firing rifle grenades, the forces all impact the BCG first.
And how does that affect rear trunnion/dust cover when the bolt carrier is locked at the front trunnion/chamber when grenade is flying away?
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:37 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Bacon&AlcoholDistributor View Post
And how does that affect rear trunnion/dust cover when the bolt carrier is locked at the front trunnion/chamber when grenade is flying away?
Because,the BCG is not designed to handle the firing of rifle grenades.and the extreme forces someitimes unlock the BCG when the grenade is fired?

Bolt lugs shear off.

Trunnion ears break.


Why do you think the Yugos decided to use RPK barrel trunnions instead of standard AKM barrel trunnions?

Why do you think they came up with the rear tang BCG retention system?
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:42 PM   #55
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whatever, I'll put 4500 rds through the npap and then sell it. Although it's disappointing that a factory comblock made ak has these issues in this point in time.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:43 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Ski View Post
i was complaining about weak recoil spring. Now when i think about it, it is possible that weak recoil spring contributed to excessive pounding in the rear end of the receiver.
How much wear does the rear trunnion show from excessive contact?
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:46 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
Because,the BCG is not designed to handle the firing of rifle grenades.and the extreme forces someitimes unlock the BCG when the grenade is fired?

Bolt lugs shear off.

Trunnion ears break.


Why do you think the Yugos decided to use RPK barrel trunnions instead of standard AKM barrel trunnions?

Why do you think they came up with the rear tang BCG retention system?
Because the extra forces is applied to front trunnion.

Because the receiver flex can or would pop the dust cover or OP rod off. The reason for receiver flex, dust cover coming off loose, its because the barrel (harmonic-whip) is involved.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:47 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Bacon&AlcoholDistributor View Post
Because the extra forced is applied to front trunnion.

Because the receiver flex can or would pop the dust cover or OP rod off. The reason for receiver flex, dust cover coming off loose, its because the barrel (harmonic-whip) is involved.
Dude, the retention system at the rear of the receiver is not there to keep the dust cover in place.


Go back to school.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:48 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by ellisoc6 View Post
How much wear does the rear trunnion show from excessive contact?
Excellent question. Pics please.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:51 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
Dude, the retention system at the rear of the receiver is not there to keep the dust cover in place.


Go back to school.
The reason it's there, it's because it's poorly designed system for lobbing obsolete grenades.

That retention that was designed to make a rifle "stronger" is the same one that proved at least in this thread to be a weak link in the entire rifle.
The irony.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:57 PM   #61
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^^^^^^ One rifle with some small cracks and suddenly the design, use, viability and quality of the firearm is proven faulty by the experts here.
gimmeabreak.
When you find 20-50-100 like that then maybe you have a repeatable condition.
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:08 PM   #62
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Excellent question. Pics please.
Trunnion doesn't look bad (pic 2), because receiver end is the weak link and this is where energy is getting away.
This crack is much worse than i thought, look inside the hole for nut, how it is spreading around.



Rear Trunnion:

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Old 11-14-2016, 06:13 PM   #63
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Yikes.

I'd say weld that shit up but don't know if i'd keep it even after welding.

Robski pepper your angus, the Greek will be along shortly to call you every name in the book, the N-pap is one of his favorite rifles.
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:13 PM   #64
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^^^^^^ One rifle with some small cracks and suddenly the design, use, viability and quality of the firearm is proven faulty by the experts here.
gimmeabreak.
When you find 20-50-100 like that then maybe you have a repeatable condition.
I'm just going by my opinion here....Not an expert in anything.

There's very little space in between retention hole/pin and a rivet. It seems as that is a week spot.

It's entirely possible that civilian (NPAP, OPAP) rifles are infect made/built with inferior metal or process, if that's the case as many have speculated on it. I have no idea why and if I were to guess...... inferior metallurgy.
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:15 PM   #65
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Need to drill out and remove the rivet for a detailed look-see.
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:22 PM   #66
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The rear trunnion needs to be removed and the receiver welded or replaced.
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:23 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Ski View Post
Trunnion doesn't look bad (pic 2), because receiver end is the weak link and this is where energy is getting away.
This crack is much worse than i thought, look inside the hole for nut, how it is spreading around.
Isn't that just the natural separation of the receiver and the rear trunnion? I mean, I can see how that might more easily lead to the progression of the crack to the other side of the hole, but the "crack" around the edge of the hole isn't really a crack; those are two separate pieces of metal that are deciding they no longer want to fly in a tight formation
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:39 PM   #68
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Oh hell Rob Ski just put a recoil buffer in it and shoot it until it completely fails.
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:48 PM   #69
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Snaps...

This is sorta a big deal IMO.

I'm putting my money on the void of the locking piece, but still very disheartening.

Last edited by Mattylight30; 11-14-2016 at 06:56 PM.
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Old 11-14-2016, 06:52 PM   #70
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Hey Rob Ski...you still giving this away or is it now considered "unsafe"?
Still curious here...
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