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Old 11-14-2016, 06:53 PM   #71
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That retaining button adds stress. Both my m70ab2 and NPAP DF destroyed these buttons within the first 500 rounds. Recoil was harsher until the button broke. I was watching Ron's video like "wow, that button is hanging in." Oh well, I already have retaining plates. I'll order some extra power recoil springs now. Interestingly enough, the DF has 3 rivets. Purchased last year iiirc
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Old 11-14-2016, 07:01 PM   #72
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I'm really curious about how this turns out. I purchased one this weekend. Mine has a serial number in the 51,000 range, but has 3 rivets on the rear, and new standard style AK stock. From the looks of Rob's, the serial number is a bit higher and has 2 rivets on the rear of the receiver.

For the much more knowledgeable AK people here, does the difference in rivets make any difference in this scenario? Or could it?
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Old 11-14-2016, 07:08 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martensite View Post
Still curious here...
Yes, it is still going to David, who btw still didn't contact me, but of course i'm going to warn him about the cracks...
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Old 11-14-2016, 07:25 PM   #74
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You guys who are asking about "is it safe?"

It sure is, and it will be until the cracks completely encircle the rear of the gun and the rear block falls off.

At which point the gun just stops working.
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Old 11-14-2016, 07:38 PM   #75
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would love to see more m90np videos...
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Old 11-14-2016, 08:03 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
You mean like was just asked in post #21?
Yes. Just like in post 21. It's almost like 2 people making the same point is a point to itself
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Old 11-14-2016, 08:46 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrgunsngear View Post
Yes. Just like in post 21. It's almost like 2 people making the same point is a point to itself
I'm not sure if you have seen my post #46

Ok, i'm not storing files used in videos already, because i'm constantly running out of space on my drives, but i was able to dig out picture from 10/24/16, this is from 4000 rounds episode, when nut decided to "jump the ship". This is picture taken on that day. Notice that crack is already present - not as big yet, but it is there.

If i had to speculate I would say this: i was complaining about weak recoil spring. Now when i think about it, it is possible that weak recoil spring contributed to excessive pounding in the rear end of the receiver.
Fragile by design, area around the hole for button mechanism cracked.
This allowed button mechanism nut to start spinning and go lose.
Rest is just progression of forces working on the rear end from absorbing recoil...
Classic domino effect of small things failing and leading to larger problems...

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Old 11-14-2016, 09:06 PM   #78
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Much thanks for the update. Sad to see this happen.

Soooo glad I went the way of the WASR.
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Old 11-14-2016, 09:11 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by deadduck357 View Post
Much thanks for the update. Sad to see this happen.

Soooo glad I went the way of the WASR.
I'm glad I sold my NPAP (first AK) to get my WASR. I'll never look at another yugo again. I'm happy with my WASR, TGI AMD, and my MAK. Sad to see this happen though
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Old 11-14-2016, 09:23 PM   #80
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You guys keep buying that Serb junk. I'd buy another AR before I'd buy a Serb AK.
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Old 11-14-2016, 10:40 PM   #81
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Still would have liked to seen what factory trigger pins would have done to the receiver.
Would have been more information.
Especially since the first N-PAP receiver cracked.
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Old 11-14-2016, 10:45 PM   #82
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Hey Rob my NPap I bought two weeks ago has three rear trunnion rivets and the one you tested only has two. Any idea why yours is missing one?
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Old 11-14-2016, 10:50 PM   #83
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How can all the ones over there be so great and all the ones over here be kind of crappy?
Are the ones we get over here different or are the one over there crappy too. It would seem that one of the previous would be right.
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Old 11-14-2016, 10:51 PM   #84
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Still love my Npap.
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Old 11-14-2016, 11:16 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapshut View Post
How can all the ones over there be so great and all the ones over here be kind of crappy?
Are the ones we get over here different or are the one over there crappy too. It would seem that one of the previous would be right.
Can't remember if it was on the AKOU FB or YouTube page, but someone commented who works at the Zastava plant. They said the build is set by the importer and they proceed from there.
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Old 11-14-2016, 11:25 PM   #86
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Supposedly a guy working for Zastava was commenting on YouTube.... Stating that our (imported AK's) are specifically made to be not as good/durable as military models. That a civilian owner does not need military grade rifle.
Not sure if he was an actually an employee (this is Internet age after all).
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Old 11-14-2016, 11:26 PM   #87
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Time to run that bitch over with a truck. Do it for science.
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Old 11-14-2016, 11:45 PM   #88
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I want to like my NPAP, but it has it quirks, the front sight block pin didn't engage the detent pin and I lost it first outing with it, one of the axis pins was shorter then the other one for some reason, front sight windage drum would drift when you shot it,besides that its been fine so far, if shit happens I'll just dump it as parts.

Mines in the 7000 range and has 3 rivets FWIW, I wouldn't buy another Serbian Zastava product myself, their quality is definitely not the same as their military line.
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Old 11-15-2016, 02:08 AM   #89
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This is just another feather in my cap about how crappy NPAP's are.

Even though I don't like Serbian AK's (tried two didn't like them) even I admit that we shouldn't judge all their AK's based on the PAP. Remember we are dealing with Century here, the company that caters to putting out cheap crap on a daily basis. RAS-47 and others ring a bell? They are to blame and to a certain extent Zastava themselves.

If you want a good Serbian AK look for a pre-'89 Mitchell import or a parts kit that uses genuine military parts.
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Old 11-15-2016, 02:22 AM   #90
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After reading Rob's analysis, I'd suggest installing one of the ALG recoil springs. Not sure if this will help but if Rob's assumption is correct and the ALG spring is designed to eliminate harmonics and shortening/weakening of the spring; this might provide a prolonged life expectancy by remedying this problem.
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Old 11-15-2016, 02:39 AM   #91
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I suspect the receiver steel, thickness and hardness, but it could be other factors. The AKM receiver is a nominal 1.0 mm with an acceptable range of 0.9 mm to 1.1 mm. Zastava calls their AKM receivers, "0.9 mm" thick. So they may start out on the thin side.

The M70 gas port is larger in diameter than the AKM to compensate for the spindle valve and possibly for the M67 ammunition powder. Do the PAP's use the larger M70 gas port?

The AKM recoil spring is lighter and slightly smaller in outside diameter than the milled receiver and RPK recoil spring.

The stamped receivers are plain carbon steel. The Russians reduced the carbon by 10 percent in the AK-74M from the AKM and AK-74 to reduce brittleness at the desired hardness. Did Zastava ever change steels? The reduced carbon steel cross referenced and sourced in the US will barely harden but the Russian steel has a higher manganese content to allow it to reach the desired hardness. The source of the steel makes a difference.

Zastava has had recent quality problems, including with their bolt action rifles.

It seems Zastava originally went to the minimum thickness sheet metal for their AKM's to maximize weight reduction.
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Old 11-15-2016, 02:57 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKBLUE View Post
Don't make too broad a generalization over one rifle and one instance.
Of course the 1.5mm receivers would be more durable.
I have de-milled a pretty large number of Zastava rear blocks., admittedly mostly 1.5mm and never saw a cracked area at the receiver cover locking area. Dunno.
Yep.
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Old 11-15-2016, 03:00 AM   #93
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Recoil springs should be replaced regularly. If the carrier is slamming into the trunnion, bad things will start to happen.
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Old 11-15-2016, 03:13 AM   #94
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Measure the free length of a new, unused recoil spring. They become significantly shorter after 2000 rounds. Poor spring steel or heat treatment can cause the spring to be out of spec or wear prematurely.
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Old 11-15-2016, 03:17 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore View Post
MIGHTY WASR > NPAP

The Mighty WASR wins again.
Even an American made AK (PSA AK47) > NPAP.
So much for all imports being better than American AKs.
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Old 11-15-2016, 03:33 AM   #96
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A few points to cover here:

1) As for the barrel grenade launching vs. under-barrel grenade launching:
The grenades launched from the barrel do generate more recoil just because of the simple mass involved-barrel launched grenades tend to weigh more and impart more recoil because of this. Also a blank fired grenade does also have the energy transmitted by the blank through the trunnion- but is it a significant contributor to recoil? To me it seems doubtful as the mass of the grenade being launched is the bigger contributor to recoil: The blanks energy transmitted through the receiver is again minimal compared to what is being launched off the end of it. Blank charges tend to be lower in comparison to full service cartridges and operate at much smaller pressures.
The gas cutoff of system imparts max energy to the grenade and little if any to the action which probably would not cycle the action enough to extract or eject the cartridge case were it left opened- which means no impact to rear of the trunnion from the bolt carrier assembly. The rear catch on the receiver is primarily to keep the top cover from flying off and the recoil spring assembly from disengaging folks. It may serve some secondary purpose but that is why it is there.
One of the reasons the Yugo grenade launchers are not fired from the shoulder is also you cannot get enough angle to use the sighting system in most cases correctly. There probably are a few grenades that generate excessive recoil: I doubt it is enough to break your shoulder- maybe a collar bone if not properly placed on the shoulder though.
The underbarrel launch systems (i.e. GP-25 & GP-30 etc) generate a fair amount of recoil and stress on the receiver also. They are directly attached to the bayonet/accessory lugs on the barrel and by nature of the barrel being offset generate a different style of strain on the receiver and barrel than the barrel launched system of the Yugos. But they also require a special retainer on the recoil spring (much like the purpose the Yugo style serves) to keep it the top cover from popping off while firing and possibly the recoil spring from disengaging (ask me how I know-I found out the hard way after using a GP-25 and GP-30 without one and having top cover and spring assembly disconnect during the recoil impulse ).

2) Regarding to the rear trunnion I see no signs of excessive damage from a weak recoil spring- there would be deformation on the rear receiver trunnion; where the trunnion would be being impacted and battered by the bolt carrier were it to have a weak spring. I could see no evidence of this from the photographs Rob provided.

3) Is it possible that the hole in the receiver could have contributed to the crack: yes of course but could it be possible that poor materials and or bad heat treatment processes were the primary cause of failure? In light of previous problems with heat treats and other problems encountered with NPAP receivers in the past I am more inclined the believe the latter more than the former.

4) The third rivet in the rear trunnion may or may not help-if there is truly a problem with the hole and two rivets then yes it may-but if it is a material problem then you are are in the same boat.

5) As for reporting or not reporting issues with the Yugo guns-many people have not had to set up and manage AK repair facilities for re-utilizing, servicing and repairing all manners of AKs which I have done and in the field also. I have had a few other people whose job was the same make the similar if not the same (unsolicited) observations about the Yugo AK's when we were comparing notes. Reports from battlefield Las Vegas(?) I think that is their name) of their Yugo failures came as no surprise to me or others I know I'll just put it that way.
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Old 11-15-2016, 03:56 AM   #97
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I read that several people have found the NPAP receiver to be soft or have had the axis pin holes egg out. The original AKM receiver hardness specs had the same maximum hardness as the AK-74 but the allowable minimum hardness was different and seems to have made the change some time during the AKM production, prior to the AK-74. Did Zastava receive and use the specs that allow a softer minimum hardness?
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Old 11-15-2016, 07:48 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allesennogwat View Post
I suspect the receiver steel, thickness and hardness, but it could be other factors. The AKM receiver is a nominal 1.0 mm with an acceptable range of 0.9 mm to 1.1 mm. Zastava calls their AKM receivers, "0.9 mm" thick. So they may start out on the thin side.

The M70 gas port is larger in diameter than the AKM to compensate for the spindle valve and possibly for the M67 ammunition powder. Do the PAP's use the larger M70 gas port?

The AKM recoil spring is lighter and slightly smaller in outside diameter than the milled receiver and RPK recoil spring.

The stamped receivers are plain carbon steel. The Russians reduced the carbon by 10 percent in the AK-74M from the AKM and AK-74 to reduce brittleness at the desired hardness. Did Zastava ever change steels? The reduced carbon steel cross referenced and sourced in the US will barely harden but the Russian steel has a higher manganese content to allow it to reach the desired hardness. The source of the steel makes a difference.

Zastava has had recent quality problems, including with their bolt action rifles.

It seems Zastava originally went to the minimum thickness sheet metal for their AKM's to maximize weight reduction.
Very good points. I'm afraid that we will never know real answer to what is happening inside Zastava factory, what kind of steel they use and etc...

@Zastava guy posting underneath of videos - there is no way to know for sure if people saying this are actually connected to Zastava, or do they even are from Serbia...but I do remember feedback from one of guys like this who was supposedly engineer working for Zastava. He was very critical of quality of production line to US.
Again, there is no way to know this for sure, for what is worth it, it could be some Yugo hater just spoofing shit for fun...

Rifle goes to winner FFL today. He contacted me last night. He is also asking for contact info of gunsmith who would be willing to repair this rifle. Of course he will pay for this.
If anyone is interested, please message me and I will give you his contact information.
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Old 11-15-2016, 08:17 AM   #99
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Hey Rob my NPap I bought two weeks ago has three rear trunnion rivets and the one you tested only has two. Any idea why yours is missing one?
Mine also has 3 rivets in that trunnion area, the NPAP you got has only 2, wondering if they changed the design to save time & money on the NPAP's with the newer crappy furniture.
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Old 11-15-2016, 08:42 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by AKrunner View Post
Mine also has 3 rivets in that trunnion area, the NPAP you got has only 2, wondering if they changed the design to save time & money on the NPAP's with the newer crappy furniture.
I honestly can't answer that question. All new Npaps are coming in now with 2 rivets.
Npap tested by me in 2015, in "Npap is Dead" video , had 3 rivets.
I don't know exactly when Zastava changed their setup for rear trunnion riveting, but it happened within last 12 months...
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Old 11-15-2016, 08:49 AM   #101
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Obviously there is still some gap in quality from the NPAP vs. OPAP lines, the only serbian ak's I would ever care to own are OPap, M92, 5.56 yugo variants.
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Old 11-15-2016, 09:20 AM   #102
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Delicious NPAP lover tears. So salty.
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Old 11-15-2016, 10:21 AM   #103
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I am thinking that certain generations of the Npap are go to go but the newer production ones have had a huge reduction of quality control. My Npap shows a 14 stamped on the rear sight block just below the pivot pin for the gas tube removal. I have also heard that some of the newer 15 & 2016 models with the newer furniture have now only 2 rivets in the rear trunnion area.
I purchased mine from Bud's gun shop, I have another buddy that got his at the same place 2 years prior to my purchase which his is stamped 12 in the same area.
So looks to me after 2014 the Npap's really took a huge Shit, mass production & loss of quality control ended up with crappy ass rifles. Kinda curious of what the date stamp on the first NPAP was in the "Npap is dead, video"?
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Old 11-15-2016, 11:19 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKrunner View Post
I am thinking that certain generations of the Npap are go to go but the newer production ones have had a huge reduction of quality control. My Npap shows a 14 stamped on the rear sight block just below the pivot pin for the gas tube removal. I have also heard that some of the newer 15 & 2016 models with the newer furniture have now only 2 rivets in the rear trunnion area.
I purchased mine from Bud's gun shop, I have another buddy that got his at the same place 2 years prior to my purchase which his is stamped 12 in the same area.
So looks to me after 2014 the Npap's really took a huge Shit, mass production & loss of quality control ended up with crappy ass rifles. Kinda curious of what the date stamp on the first NPAP was in the "Npap is dead, video"?
Yes I'm sure they made that years extra special. Denial is an ugly thing.
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Old 11-15-2016, 11:46 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKrunner View Post
I am thinking that certain generations of the Npap are go to go but the newer production ones have had a huge reduction of quality control. My Npap shows a 14 stamped on the rear sight block just below the pivot pin for the gas tube removal. I have also heard that some of the newer 15 & 2016 models with the newer furniture have now only 2 rivets in the rear trunnion area.
I purchased mine from Bud's gun shop, I have another buddy that got his at the same place 2 years prior to my purchase which his is stamped 12 in the same area.
So looks to me after 2014 the Npap's really took a huge Shit, mass production & loss of quality control ended up with crappy ass rifles. Kinda curious of what the date stamp on the first NPAP was in the "Npap is dead, video"?
That is a very large conclusion jump. This is one rifle being discussed.
With a few other individual anecdotes added.

These "tests" and with each post the whole things shifts from one direction to the other. Kinda comical but worrying none the less for some owners.

Chill for a bit., and determine repeatable issues...,
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