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Old 11-15-2016, 12:41 PM   #106
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It doesn't take a brain surgeon to determine that 3 rivets is going to distribute lesser stress to concentrated areas versus 2 rivets. I'm willing to bet the change over to the 2 rivet trunion is what contributed to this issue.
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Old 11-15-2016, 12:48 PM   #107
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All Zastava fixed stock rear trunnions were manufactured as two rivet type., in both 1.5mm receivers and 1mm receivers. Until the most recent models.

Likely the past 30 years or so with double rivet.

It appears they are using the M21 type rear block in some of the PAP assemblies now?

http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/milita...t-rifle-m77-b1
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Old 11-15-2016, 12:48 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by AKBLUE View Post
That is a very large conclusion jump. This is one rifle being discussed.
With a few other individual anecdotes added.

These "tests" and with each post the whole things shifts from one direction to the other. Kinda comical but worrying none the less for some owners.

Chill for a bit., and determine repeatable issues...,
The 265 round WASR barrel melt
The N-PAP cracks

Tell me about this WASR barrel melt in 265 rounds?
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Old 11-15-2016, 01:10 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Mr. Kalash View Post
Tell me about this WASR barrel melt in 265 rounds?
Here>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlL-uRkJ0yA

& here>>>

http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showth...=wasr+meltdown

Last edited by AKBLUE; 11-15-2016 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 11-15-2016, 02:51 PM   #110
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I think NPAP DF owners are better off. The DF versions use three rivet rear trunnions. The rivets are also place further away from the recoil spring assembly retainer button.

NPAP's seem over gassed to me. Too much gas pressure combined with weak recoil springs even when brand new will cause the rear trunnion to take beating, especially after a few thousand rounds. I put Wolff extra power springs in both of my NPAP's when they were new.
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Old 11-15-2016, 04:17 PM   #111
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I put Wolff extra power springs in both of my NPAP's when they were new.
I think I will do the same and thanks.
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Old 11-15-2016, 06:25 PM   #112
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I wasn't posting these pics or comments to say I was a Npap fan boy, I was doing so to show that I have a Npap AK 47 that has differences in the design, that mine isn't a DF either & it has the 3 rivets in the rear area. I am also trying to say something has gone astray in the Npap's production in the last 5 yrs. Akblue I have noticed that the ones on that sight you provided do show 2 rivets but all those models of Npap rifles don't have a scope rail mount on the side either, I looked at all the models that they showed in the gallery & none have a scope rail on the back side. The one Rob did a review on has the scope mount but still has only 2 rivets in the trunnion area. so I am just trying to figure out what Npap rifles are better & which ones might be having issues. I don't agree with that Wasr 10 melt down video, they took a standard semi auto AK that hasn't really be manufactured to shoot full auto anymore of course I think almost any semi auto AK or AR out there on the market in the Wasr price point rage would have about the same effect, I wish I could do a the same with a Arsenal, or a Npap or Opap to see what kind of melt down would occur on those AK's. Same with like the S&W M&P 15 sport AR or Ruger's AR 15 rifles converting them to full auto wonder how many rounds you would get out of them, I am thinking about the same or maybe less or maybe more. I all I was just trying to provide insight on my Npap experiences. That I have a rifle that has seen 5,000+ round in the last 2 yrs & it still shoots well, I haven't had a single malfunction with that rifle that wasn't magazine related, Tapco mag related.


I also did the same with the recoil springs after I shot only 500 rounds cause I could tell that the spring was really loose. I am at this time torn between the Wolf extra power or a new ALG defense. Not sure which one but I might just order one of each I have a extra recoil spring assembly so I might right up a review on the two different springs here in the next few weeks.

Last edited by AKrunner; 11-15-2016 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 11-15-2016, 06:44 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by AKrunner View Post
I am thinking that certain generations of the Npap are go to go but the newer production ones have had a huge reduction of quality control. My Npap shows a 14 stamped on the rear sight block just below the pivot pin for the gas tube removal. I have also heard that some of the newer 15 & 2016 models with the newer furniture have now only 2 rivets in the rear trunnion area.
I purchased mine from Bud's gun shop, I have another buddy that got his at the same place 2 years prior to my purchase which his is stamped 12 in the same area.
So looks to me after 2014 the Npap's really took a huge Shit, mass production & loss of quality control ended up with crappy ass rifles. Kinda curious of what the date stamp on the first NPAP was in the "Npap is dead, video"?
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I was posting these pics or comments to say I was a Npap fan boy, I was doing so to show that I have a Npap AK 47 that has differences in the design, that mine isn't a DF either & it has the 3 rivets in the rear area.
I also did the same with the recoil springs after I shot only 500 rounds cause I could tell that the spring was really loose. I am at this time torn between the Wolf extra power or a new ALG defense. Not sure which one but I might just order one of each I have a extra recoil spring assembly so I might right up a review on the two different springs here in the next few weeks.
IMHO you are also jumping to some conclusions with no real data to support it.
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Old 11-15-2016, 07:20 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by AKBLUE View Post
All Zastava fixed stock rear trunnions were manufactured as two rivet type., in both 1.5mm receivers and 1mm receivers. Until the most recent models.

Likely the past 30 years or so with double rivet.

It appears they are using the M21 type rear block in some of the PAP assemblies now?

http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/milita...t-rifle-m77-b1
My NPAP is 5 years old and has 3 rivets in rear trunion and has a fixed stock
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Old 11-15-2016, 07:22 PM   #115
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Curious why this NPAP that was used in the test isn't getting setting back for warranty so the problem can be addressed?
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Old 11-15-2016, 07:25 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by AKBLUE View Post
All Zastava fixed stock rear trunnions were manufactured as two rivet type., in both 1.5mm receivers and 1mm receivers. Until the most recent models.

Likely the past 30 years or so with double rivet.

It appears they are using the M21 type rear block in some of the PAP assemblies now?

http://www.zastava-arms.rs/en/milita...t-rifle-m77-b1
Quote:
Originally Posted by tompat View Post
My NPAP is 5 years old and has 3 rivets in rear trunion and has a fixed stock
I should have been more clear I was referencing the Zastava M70B1 series rifles., not the PAP series over the past 30 years.
The PAP's are another story and I have not tracked the lineage of the 3 rivet rear blocks. % years evidently at least.
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Old 11-15-2016, 08:32 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Ski View Post
I honestly can't answer that question. All new Npaps are coming in now with 2 rivets.
Npap tested by me in 2015, in "Npap is Dead" video , had 3 rivets.
I don't know exactly when Zastava changed their setup for rear trunnion riveting, but it happened within last 12 months...
My Npap is a 2016, with 3 rivets. I actually bought my newest one after you.
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Old 11-15-2016, 08:41 PM   #118
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In the name of AK science, I took a ~1200rnd count NPAP (two rivet trunnion , new style stock) quickly to the range today to do some testing. This NPAP has had a wolff xtra power recoil spring in it from day one and has had zero failure to feeds. Trunnion and carrier exhibit no clear indication of hard contact with one another.

The test shooting was a combination of slow fire and mag dumps.

Picture one, carrier at start of test with black marker added to discover any contact. Looks like in the photo I went a little lite on the right hand side...couldnt tell in person.



After shooting 200rds, slow and fast



Evidence of very light carrier/trunnion contact. When racking the bolt, I took extra care to only pull it back far enough to chamber a round as to not accidently make a mark.

What this tells us is that the rifles are likely over gassed. The metal could be weak.... but they are over gassed and probably using the same sized gasport as their grenade launching big brothers. This will crack a receiver or rivets irregardless of receiver hardness.

If one has an NPAP and wants to get the most out of it, I would suggest the wolff extra power recoil spring at minimum.

One could also WESCOG (old FAL guys will get that) your rifle by reducing the amount of gas effecting the piston by slightly reducing the surface area of the gas piston itself. (This part is replaceable and cheap) Either reduce the diameter some or groove the piston head to allow some gas to escape past the sides. You would only want to remove a little at a time and test fire each time. Only remove enough material to make the rife cycle and not smack the rear trunnion (use black marker each test fire to check progress)

YNPMV (your npap may vary)
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Old 11-15-2016, 09:33 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by AKBLUE View Post
I should have been more clear I was referencing the Zastava M70B1 series rifles., not the PAP series over the past 30 years.
The PAP's are another story and I have not tracked the lineage of the 3 rivet rear blocks. % years evidently at least.
Got it, thank you
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Old 11-15-2016, 09:48 PM   #120
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Rob, any possibility we could put a trigger pull weight gauge on this NPAP and cycle it to check recoil spring weight? Not sure if the gauges are strong enough to do this?
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Old 11-15-2016, 10:04 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by tompat View Post
Rob, any possibility we could put a trigger pull weight gauge on this NPAP and cycle it to check recoil spring weight? Not sure if the gauges are strong enough to do this?
Negative, rifle is already on the way to PA to the new home...
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Old 11-15-2016, 11:49 PM   #122
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Oh well, the takeaways here are add a Wolff high power recoil spring, blue loctite one end of the dust cover release button, add retainer plate, trigger and hammer pins and a better stock. The Npap isn't the grab and go SHTF gun but another bullet hose with a fresh cold barrel.

Thanks for the test Rob!

Last edited by bootstrap; 11-15-2016 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 11-16-2016, 01:49 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by bootstrap View Post
Oh well, the takeaways here are add a Wolff high power recoil spring, blue loctite one end of the dust cover release button, add retainer plate, trigger and hammer pins and a better stock. The Npap isn't the grab and go SHTF gun but another bullet hose with a fresh cold barrel.

Thanks for the test Rob!
Did I miss something - what happened to the trigger and hammer pins?
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Old 11-16-2016, 02:10 AM   #124
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Gents, the more I look into the design of the NPAPs with 3 rivets on rear trunion, the more and more I see how significant it really is over the 2 rivet trunion. I'll explain below:

First and foremost, there are actually 6 rivets (3 on each side) on the rear trunion versus 4. Secondarily (here is the best part) the extra rivet on the left side goes through the side rail. Yes, the side rail has 3 more rivets so a total of 4 rivets securing it to the receiver. What does this mean? Well, it means the stress placed upon the rear trunion is actually dispersed across at least 9 rivet locations on the receiver. Granted most of these rivets are on the left side and what we seeing from Rob's pictures is the cracking occurred on the right side. Even though that's the case here, this design is superior to the design of the NPAP in the testing. I know this does not provide relief for those with 2-rivet rear trunions, but there is something that will help when considering an NPAP for those still inclined.

Something else to consider...take a look inside your NPAP and if there are more noticeable witness marks on the right side of the trunion (from carrier impact), it might be worthwhile to lightly dremel the area where the witness marks are to provide some equalization of the stress over to the left side.

Last edited by tompat; 11-16-2016 at 02:12 AM. Reason: spel
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Old 11-16-2016, 02:11 AM   #125
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Did I miss something - what happened to the trigger and hammer pins?
Nothing

Rob replaced them to anti-rotational pins.

There have been issues of factory pins egging out receiver holes in more than 1Zastava.

Would've been nice to see if this N-PAP did the same.

All this said, I miss my M82 pistol, deeply.
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Old 11-16-2016, 02:25 AM   #126
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Nothing

Rob replaced them to anti-rotational pins.

There have been issues of factory pins egging out receiver holes in more than 1Zastava.

Would've been nice to see if this N-PAP did the same.

All this said, I miss my M82 pistol, deeply.
Thanks for clarifying....

I've noticed that NPAP's carrier rides the top of the hammer more than standard AKMs. Curious if this extra downward pressure from the carrier when cycling back is contributing to it? I'd be hesitant to use an extra power hammer spring, due to what I've experienced with this.

With an ALG trigger installed, the bottom of the carrier hits the hammer just before the ramp on the hammer where it should normally hit. This places additional stress on the trigger pins. I no longer have the G2 trigger that came in it to verify if it did the same thing with that trigger.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:02 AM   #127
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Looks like all the AK brands are crap then? Arsenal with melting paint and rust issues, NPAP with cracks, WASR with melting barrel, Century with cast metal, DDI with broken extractor. Running out of options.
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Old 11-16-2016, 04:54 AM   #128
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Looks like all the AK brands are crap then? Arsenal with melting paint and rust issues, NPAP with cracks, WASR with melting barrel, Century with cast metal, DDI with broken extractor. Running out of options.
VEPR.
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Old 11-16-2016, 08:46 AM   #129
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Looks like all the AK brands are crap then? Arsenal with melting paint and rust issues, NPAP with cracks, WASR with melting barrel, Century with cast metal, DDI with broken extractor. Running out of options.
Their is no melting paint and rust issue. Damn dude , if it was such an issue people wouldn't buy them . A small batch of rifles had paint issues , the rusting is new to me . I can take pics for you of some well used Arsenal's here in humid Florida. Even if they had paint issues I'd hardly call them crap. If I felt the need I would duracoat them for about $35 a piece which I haven't found the need.
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Old 11-16-2016, 08:54 AM   #130
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AKs are made by Paupers for Paupers. Have fun with them and when they crack, melt, droop or whatever, part them out and buy another one. They are a ton of fun to shoot. I even know a few people who prefer them over anything else. Not many, but a few. Mine is actually the most "ready" rifle I have.
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Old 11-16-2016, 09:35 AM   #131
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AKs are made by Paupers for Paupers. Have fun with them and when they crack, melt, droop or whatever, part them out and buy another one. They are a ton of fun to shoot. I even know a few people who prefer them over anything else. Not many, but a few. Mine is actually the most "ready" rifle I have.
No AK brand is perfect, but if it functions, then it's good go to.
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Old 11-16-2016, 09:42 AM   #132
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VEPR.
You're right. Haven't seen any issues with VEPR yet except its heavy weight. VEPR barrel won't melt for sure.
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Old 11-16-2016, 10:28 AM   #133
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You're right. Haven't seen any issues with VEPR yet except its heavy weight. VEPR barrel won't melt for sure.
Are you planning on doing alot of continuous full auto mag dumps? I'm not really sure what you're worried about.
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Old 11-16-2016, 11:15 AM   #134
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VEPR.
Maybe, let's see how it holds up to the AKOU stress test.
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Old 11-16-2016, 11:24 AM   #135
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My primer M70ab2 has been shot well over 5 K now. It has a NoDak Spud receiver and she is holding up fine. The only thing I will replace is the recoil springs because I was dumb and used a recoil buffer when I first got it.

I still love the Yugo. They make my favorite "Krink" and my favorite 16 inch carbine. The RPK receiver, and medium profile barrel and old world craftsmanship makes the Yugo pattern Kalashnikov rifle very desirable to me outside a Russian and Bulgarian rifle.
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Old 11-16-2016, 11:39 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by AKBLUE View Post
All Zastava fixed stock rear trunnions were manufactured as two rivet type., in both 1.5mm receivers and 1mm receivers. Until the most recent models.

Likely the past 30 years or so with double rivet.

It appears they are using the M21 type rear block in some of the PAP assemblies now?
I would say that you are correct, M21 has 3 rivets as well.
This whole thing is confusing, my friend just bought brand new NPAP as well and he has 2 rivets in the rear....
His SN is upper 53k. Mine was in lower 53k.
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Old 11-16-2016, 12:27 PM   #137
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The fixed stock 5.56 models, M80, M82 RPK, M90 and M90 RPK have three rivet trunnions. The M80 has the light AKM type receiver.

Some two rivet trunnions have an additional bottom rivet.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:10 PM   #138
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Did some additional NPAP checking today:

-On my NPAP, the carrier gets hung up on the hammer unless I rack it hard and let go. If I move it slowly, it will hang up and not go in to battery.
-If I move the recoil spring from my Saiga to the NPAP, the above problem does not occur. This tells me that either the Saiga has an extra power spring on the NPAP spring is weak, thus my next test.
-I moved spring from my WASR to the NPAP and the carrier would get hung up. Conclusion: either Saiga spring is extra power or both NPAP/WASR springs are weak.

I ordered both an ALG spring and Wolff extra power spring. I'll have more to report once I try each of those in the NPAP.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:13 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tompat View Post
Did some additional NPAP checking today:

-On my NPAP, the carrier gets hung up on the hammer unless I rack it hard and let go. If I move it slowly, it will hang up and not go in to battery.
-If I move the recoil spring from my Saiga to the NPAP, the above problem does not occur. This tells me that either the Saiga has an extra power spring on the NPAP spring is weak, thus my next test.
-I moved spring from my WASR to the NPAP and the carrier would get hung up. Conclusion: either Saiga spring is extra power or both NPAP/WASR springs are weak.

I ordered both an ALG spring and Wolff extra power spring. I'll have more to report once I try each of those in the NPAP.
The Wolff XP spring runs fine in my Npap even using the weak Tula shit from Walmart. I think you'll like how it feels once you get use to it not slamming into your shoulder.
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Old 11-16-2016, 04:31 PM   #140
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The fixed stock 5.56 models, M80, M82 RPK, M90 and M90 RPK have three rivet trunnions. The M80 has the light AKM type receiver.

Some two rivet trunnions have an additional bottom rivet.
Thank you for this info.
Quick question, by any chance, do you know why they keep switching rear trunnions on those NPAPs coming our way?
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