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Old 02-15-2017, 05:39 PM   #71
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Wow.... there is a lot of vitriol here for a company that has so far been extremely open about their practices and welcoming of tours of their facilities. I have no doubt there will be hiccups, but if they are willing to learn, give them the chance. Sorry to say it, but there is no way to ensure that projects won't launch without issues. How many have bought vehicles that had recalls? Did you swear off the brand for good after that?

Competition helps the consumer.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:08 PM   #72
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I have no doubt there will be hiccups, but if they are willing to learn, give them the chance. Sorry to say it, but there is no way to ensure that projects won't launch without issues. How many have bought vehicles that had recalls? Did you swear off the brand for good after that?

Competition helps the consumer.
Fair assessment.
Competition absolutely helps the consumer.

HOWEVER.....there's a flipside that has potential to hurt the consumer as well IMO.....
As more domestic manufacturers grab a foothold with commercial quality AK's
and cast parts, they will purposely debilitate the CHF military grade import market.

Century Arms is a shining example. So embrace "the suck" or.....hold them to a higher standard.
Going back to cars, sure KIA came out making competition for Honda and Toyota 30 years ago, but they also sucked terribly til ~2009.

I am all for waiting for evidence from a viable outlet of durability. Until that time.......it's a lower quality metallurgical standard that NEEDS to prove itself.
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But just how much better is a forging than a casting?

I did some research on the internet and found an excellent research paper* written by members of the Industrial & Manufacturing Engineering Department at the University of Toledo, shared by the Forging Industry Association. This paper compares a single type of product made both ways. Read it here.

How’s this for hard numbers? No pun intended.

Based on this paper:

Forged parts had a 26% higher tensile strength than the cast parts. This means you can have stronger shackles at a lower part weight.
Forged parts have a 37% higher fatigue strength resulting in a factor of six longer fatigue life. This means that a forged shackle is going to last longer.
Cast iron only has 66% of the yield strength of forged steel. Yield strength is an indicator of what load a shackle will hold before starting to deform.
The forged parts had a 58% reduction in area when pulled to failure. The cast parts only had a 6% reduction in area.

http://blog.cmworks.com/forging-vs-c...ich-is-better/
and if memory serves there's also differences between hot forgings and cold forgings (room temperature)
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:22 PM   #73
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Personally I hope the best for Riley but I'm an optimist. I also hope that DDI and PSA get things worked out and produce some good stuff. Hell I'd like to see Century improve their soft parts and reintroduce a RAS47 V2. More options - better choices.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:22 PM   #74
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All true, but for people stuck in cali we dont have the same options, some guns are banned by model, prices are already inflated here , we cant go online and get the same deals cause we have to first even get it from a seller or dealer that will convert and ship in legal config (adds cost) then we have to pay sales tax no matter from where we bought it, dros, and transfer fee after all said and done even a wasr is around 800 now for us..
Understandable.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:30 PM   #75
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There will never be an "affordable" all American made Ak. I use "affordable" loosely, what's affordable to one may not be to another.

Labor and material cost are way to expensive here in the states. If you want an American made Ak that is equal to rifles made in comm-block countries of 40/50+ years ago. You will pay dearly for it.

The only way to get a cheap Ak to cheap people is to cut corners. Period!

"But dudes in the middle east make them in caves....why can't we?????"
Those people are not machining shit! They are simply assembling parts just as you or I would in our garages. With parts from other rifles.

You will not get a high quality rifle without a high price tag.
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:44 PM   #76
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How come no one has brought up Polish front trunnions that are cast? If I remember correctly one of those AKs passed the AKOU test. So obviously cast done right can work no?
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:46 PM   #77
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How come no one has brought up Polish front trunnions that are cast? If I remember correctly one of those AKs passed the AKOU test. So obviously cast done right can work no?
Yes
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:52 PM   #78
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Labor and material cost are way to expensive here in the states. If you want an American
made Ak that is equal to rifles made in comm-block countries of 40/50+ years ago.
You will pay dearly for it.
I agree.

Until the tooling is up and paid for, it will cost more......so corners are cut
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Old 02-15-2017, 06:56 PM   #79
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How come no one has brought up Polish front trunnions that are cast? If I remember correctly one of those AKs passed the AKOU test. So obviously cast done right can work no?
Well here's the deal.......

5,000 rounds is a good start, but it's not an indication that a commercial AK
entity like WBP is producing a trunnion that can hold to full military CHF spec.

If you guys remember, the Century RAS47 also passed the 5,000 round test.....
Until Rob put his gauges into the rifle and discovered it the gauges said it was f**ked.

Hell even Palmetto State Armory just passed the 5,000 round test with a cast bolt carrier
that was never disclosed. Everyone was lead to believe it was all billet steel the entire time

Simply put, we don't have the information for longevity......so we have to speculate.
UNTIL ......we look at Battlefield Vegas, which beats the crap out of AK's and they really show the failure points fast.

Hence why WBP started shipping forged front trunnions with "Polska" on them because of demand.

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Old 02-15-2017, 06:59 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Mike47 View Post
How come no one has brought up Polish front trunnions that are cast? If I remember correctly one of those AKs passed the AKOU test. So obviously cast done right can work no?
Yes, WBP trunnion was done right and survived. But IO trunnion was showing this deformation after slightly more than 1k (see picture)...

Manufacturing process is one thing, but quality of steel and assembly is other thing.

I think what Ace was saying is that you can have more forgiveness with forging.

Still, all goes back to quality of steel used. Good steel isn't cheap...

@Mel64 post - excellent post!

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Old 02-15-2017, 07:04 PM   #81
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IF it wasn't for Rob and his 5,000 round battery of tests, and Mel64's tests
Half of this forum would own I.O. ( Inadvertent Obituary ) AK's.
.....and this forum is probably only <1% of US AK owners nationwide I'd wager.....

I say this with conviction because even MrGunsandGear said his LGS sells I.O.'s 10 to 1.
That's insane.....and we all know who the big box stores now carry mostly......RAS47/C39V2's.

Be thankful for the assets we have that share their time and knowledge for us all to learn from.
But damnit.....LEARN FROM IT.....lol
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:11 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Rob Ski View Post
Yes, WBP trunnion was done right and survived. But IO trunnion was showing this deformation after slightly more than 1k (see picture)...

Manufacturing process is one thing, but quality of steel and assembly is other thing.

I think what Ace was saying is that you can have more forgiveness with forging.

Still, all goes back to quality of steel used. Good steel isn't cheap...

@Mel64 post - excellent post!

Gotcha.I still hope to see you do a gas tube pirate eye with the Riley rifle in the future
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:16 PM   #83
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Maybe if wbp sees these threads they can chime in with what kind of round count their cast parts have seen. I remember seeing in another thread wbp rep posted his personal rifle is a cast one.
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Old 02-15-2017, 07:20 PM   #84
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Maybe if wbp sees these threads they can chime in with what kind of round count their cast parts have seen.
Would you really trust what a vendor trying to sell you a product tells you???

Look at DDI, and how that worked out. Selling Unicorns shittin skittles on the lawn for days,
Then reality struck on Rob's farm, twice.... and shortly after, the firesale dumping all employees day after Christmas, and vacating the state.

Caveat Emptor
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:02 PM   #85
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Fair assessment.
Competition absolutely helps the consumer.

HOWEVER.....there's a flipside that has potential to hurt the consumer as well IMO.....
As more domestic manufacturers grab a foothold with commercial quality AK's
and cast parts, they will purposely debilitate the CHF military grade import market.

Century Arms is a shining example. So embrace "the suck" or.....hold them to a higher standard.
Going back to cars, sure KIA came out making competition for Honda and Toyota 30 years ago, but they also sucked terribly til ~2009.
Also valid points. Allow me to rephrase: "Competition benefits the consumer in the absence of the uneducated. "
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Old 02-15-2017, 11:37 PM   #86
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Would you really trust what a vendor trying to sell you a product tells you???

Look at DDI, and how that worked out. Selling Unicorns shittin skittles on the lawn for days,
Then reality struck on Rob's farm, twice.... and shortly after, the firesale dumping all employees day after Christmas, and vacating the state.

Caveat Emptor
Yes.... because their casting proved itself to not be shit already...

And i dont see ddi's problems as that big a deal 2 extractors and a weld on 1 stock...

I just got burned by psa's kit and lies but at some point you gotta take the tin foil hat off.
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Old 02-16-2017, 02:20 AM   #87
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I wonder if these parts are cast in the United States or imported as 80%?

Also do they manufacture the parts themselves?
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Old 02-16-2017, 08:43 AM   #88
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Just a quick update. I have more ammo coming in and I should be able to get 1000 more through this rifle before I break it down to send to Mel. If anyone would like to help contribute to the round count, please pm me.
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Old 02-17-2017, 06:19 PM   #89
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I just updated the original post. I have posted Videos two and three.
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:08 PM   #90
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I just updated the original post. I have posted Videos two and three.
Awesome. Good to see the rifle doing well through the 500. For future you could shorten vids considerably. Both vids I jumped from first five minutes to the last five, try to keep them around 10 mins, ain't got 45 mins to watch two vids. Good info hope I didn't miss much. Thanks for doing this.
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:24 PM   #91
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Awesome. Good to see the rifle doing well through the 500. For future you could shorten vids considerably. Both vids I jumped from first five minutes to the last five, try to keep them around 10 mins, ain't got 45 mins to watch two vids. Good info hope I didn't miss much. Thanks for doing this.
Don't listen to him Zeke I want hour long videos.Each.
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:32 PM   #92
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Don't listen to him Zeke I want hour long videos.Each.
Must not have a job. Oh I see... CA
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:37 PM   #93
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Must not have a job. Oh I see... CA
And I want Spanish subtitles
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Old 02-17-2017, 07:47 PM   #94
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And I want Spanish subtitles
Oh sht - reconquista.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:04 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Mel64D View Post
There will never be an "affordable" all American made Ak. I use "affordable" loosely, what's affordable to one may not be to another.

Labor and material cost are way to expensive here in the states. If you want an American made Ak that is equal to rifles made in comm-block countries of 40/50+ years ago. You will pay dearly for it.

The only way to get a cheap Ak to cheap people is to cut corners. Period!

"But dudes in the middle east make them in caves....why can't we?????"
Those people are not machining shit! They are simply assembling parts just as you or I would in our garages. With parts from other rifles.

You will not get a high quality rifle without a high price tag.
Just scored a NIB Vepr 39 today for 550 bucks....they are out there.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:05 PM   #96
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Good vids Zeke.

What's interesting is that a lot of the small things going on with mine, are a little different than the small things with yours. I'll be interested to see other in dept reviews pop up and what idiosyncratic flaws are present in theirs.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:07 PM   #97
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Just scored a NIB Vepr 39 today for 550 bucks....they are out there.
Where at? I have $550. What alley do I need to walk into?
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:14 PM   #98
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Where at? I have $550. What alley do I need to walk into?
Local seller, funny ive been on a roll lately with local deals, just last week also found a Saiga back coverted for 5 bills. Ill take a 15k round count Wasr for 400 bucks over any new American pos ak with all the promises and hype. Already been burned once. But i would pay much more for an American ak if it was 100% forged and no cast corners cut.
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Old 02-17-2017, 08:23 PM   #99
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Zeke do you plan on reprofiling the hammer to give the carrier tail a chance or are you leaving it stock? The length of the video is fine I like details but watching the other guy put in a mag and chamber a round was pretty painful to watch.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:14 PM   #100
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Local seller, funny ive been on a roll lately with local deals, just last week also found a Saiga back coverted for 5 bills. Ill take a 15k round count Wasr for 400 bucks over any new American pos ak with all the promises and hype. Already been burned once. But i would pay much more for an American ak if it was 100% forged and no cast corners cut.
I wish it was like that here. In FL people seem to think that if they shoot and abuse a gun without cleaning it, it adds value. There's an NPAP UF for sale locally right now for $1600.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:16 PM   #101
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Zeke do you plan on reprofiling the hammer to give the carrier tail a chance or are you leaving it stock?
^I'm also curious^
I've been debating this myself.
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Old 02-17-2017, 09:58 PM   #102
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Viper, excellent job. You've been a great non bias evaluator thus far. Im happy to see the rifle performing and slowly eliminating the naysayers with each failed close on the no go gauge. I can't wait to see the next 1000. For $500 most guys who buy it wont even put 1000 through it probably (unfortunately). Another thousand will help those of us who do shoot em . Sand test?
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:22 PM   #103
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Zeke do you plan on reprofiling the hammer to give the carrier tail a chance or are you leaving it stock? The length of the video is fine I like details but watching the other guy put in a mag and chamber a round was pretty painful to watch.
I do plan on profiling the hammer, yes. I did leave it stock because... Science.

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Good vids Zeke.

What's interesting is that a lot of the small things going on with mine, are a little different than the small things with yours. I'll be interested to see other in dept reviews pop up and what idiosyncratic flaws are present in theirs.
Agreed, I do see that we have the same divot from the bolt. Does not seem to be an issue... so far.
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Viper, excellent job. You've been a great non bias evaluator thus far. Im happy to see the rifle performing and slowly eliminating the naysayers with each failed close on the no go gauge. I can't wait to see the next 1000. For $500 most guys who buy it wont even put 1000 through it probably (unfortunately). Another thousand will help those of us who do shoot em . Sand test?
All it has to do is make it past Robs 1,666 I.O. test and I think everyone will be good. As far as a sand test? I might do a sand and gravel test. I would prefer the rifle fail on its own merits and not due to any factor that I may have caused though.I can do the sand test after I get 1000 rounds through it I will clean the rifle after the video anyway.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:23 PM   #104
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Where at? I have $550. What alley do I need to walk into?
Some guys just get all the girls.
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Old 02-17-2017, 10:36 PM   #105
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Some guys just get all the girls.
Glad someone got that.
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