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Old 09-01-2017, 09:40 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by AKBLUE View Post
That is not what the regulations or opinion letters state. Go back and read the letters and regs etc.
The regulations are vague; however, in the context of the spirit of the law aka the problem it was supposed to solve coupled with the fact that the law has NEVER been applied to a consumer and is just about impossible to enforce on the end user compared to a manufacturer/importer, all seems to support my conclusion. As far as the "option" of the lone person who wrote the letter almost two decades ago, it isn't worth the paper it's written on. The only thing that matters is the law and the opinions of judges aka case law.

In any event, it's a non issue. It's fear mongering to say otherwise or to run around telling people they're going to be arrested for changing out a pistol grip on their personal rifle...
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:44 AM   #72
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It is a discussion. Don't get all personal or take it personal. Don't tell me what I get off on. I am detailing the evidence. Simple.

Read this>>

http://gunwiki.net/JustTheLaw/RefFed922r
Plenty of evidence available for people to see and there's nothing definitive except for the fact it's aimed at manufactures and importers and even then many them probably aren't following it to a T. Add to the fact it's unenforceable and has never been enforced I'm sure it's pretty safe to say your average joe doesn't need to stress out about it. I'm not getting personal but it's apparent you are very fond of 922r and it's enforcement. Essentially all you're doing is fear mongering.
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:47 AM   #73
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I just spoke with Cassidy at Texas Law Shield. She is 100% certain that 922(r) applies to everyone—importers, manufacturers, gunsmiths and consumers.
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:29 AM   #74
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I sell parts for 922r compliance and I have no problem saying that you're about 200X more likely to be killed by lightning than to be charged with a 922r violation. NO ONE is checking!!!

That said I'll happily take your $18.50 and send you a 5 pack of floor plates. They Say "USA" on them.
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:32 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by micahgartman View Post
I just spoke with Cassidy at Texas Law Shield. She is 100% certain that 922(r) applies to everyone—importers, manufacturers, gunsmiths and consumers.
Until I hear of a consumer being charged with a felony for changing out a part or two on their personal rifle or any case law pertaining to such, I'm going to continue accessorize my rifles as I see fit. Until then, as far as I personally am concerned, what everyone has to say on the matter are just personal opinions and interpretation.

As far as letters go, they don't mean much, and hold little to no weight in the court of law. If a suit at the ATF office, for example, interprets the law one way, bringing in a letter of their interpretation of said law isn't going to convict or save you from conviction. Whether you're convicted or not will hinge on the Judge's interpretation of the law which will be more indebt and based on hearing arguments on both sides as well as existing case law.

Last edited by praxidike; 09-01-2017 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:32 AM   #76
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I sell parts for 922r compliance and I have no problem saying that you're about 200X more likely to be killed by lightning than to be charged with a 922r violation. NO ONE is checking!!!

That said I'll happily take your $18.50 and send you a 5 pack of floor plates. They Say "USA" on them.
I bought some of your floor plates a while back. They are very nice and fit perfectly with those el cheapo Croatian BHOs.
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:36 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by praxidike View Post
Until I hear of a consumer being charged with a felony for changing out a part or two on their personal rifle or any case law pertaining to such, I'm going to continue accessorize my rifles as I see fit. Until then, as far as I'm personally am concerned, what everyone has to say on the matter are just personal opinions and interpretation.
I agree. I just wanted to share with the group the words of a real life lawyer who specializes in firearm-related laws.
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:55 AM   #78
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Can I put a folding stock on my yugo sks?
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Old 09-01-2017, 10:59 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by micahgartman View Post
I agree. I just wanted to share with the group the words of a real life lawyer who specializes in firearm-related laws.
Sadly, for those of us who . . .

- aren't in the same state as their practice
- aren't their client

. . . their "legal advice" means bupkus.


If you didn't pay the lawyer for that legal advice, it's just their personal opinion as far as the law is concerned.
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:24 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
Sadly, for those of us who . . .

- aren't in the same state as their practice
- aren't their client

. . . their "legal advice" means bupkus.


If you didn't pay the lawyer for that legal advice, it's just their personal opinion as far as the law is concerned.
I fully understand. I am a member of Texas Law Shield, so this information has been paid for.

I'm only providing it for the betterment of our community. Can we still be friends?
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Old 09-01-2017, 11:29 AM   #81
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Listen to AKBlue

He's never tried to steer anyone wrong, and has a solid balanced view and knowledge.

Plenty of scenarios he listed could invoke an issue for an owner.
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Old 09-01-2017, 12:54 PM   #82
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I sent an email to Century asking which parts in my WASR are Made In America. I just received this response from Robert Pittman:

US MADE PARTS:

AK Pistol Grip Nut USA
AK Pistol Grip Screw USA
AK Pistol Grip Blk Plastic USA
AK Retaining Spring USA
AK Trigger Century USA
AK Disconector Century USA
AK Hammer Century USA
MAG 30RD MAGPUL AK 7.62x39
WASR Buttstock Military USA
AK Compensator USA
AK TANG SCREW USA
WASR Buttplate Metal USA
WASR Buttplate Screw 1" USA
AK Rear Sling Swivel USA
AK R Sling Swivel Screw USA
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Old 09-01-2017, 02:21 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by micahgartman View Post
I agree. I just wanted to share with the group the words of a real life lawyer who specializes in firearm-related laws.
A lawyer can't get paid to protect you from laws that don't affect you, so I would take a lawyer's word with a grain of salt.
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Old 09-01-2017, 03:36 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by micahgartman View Post
I sent an email to Century asking which parts in my WASR are Made In America. I just received this response from Robert Pittman:

US MADE PARTS:

AK Pistol Grip Nut USA
AK Pistol Grip Screw USA
AK Pistol Grip Blk Plastic USA
AK Retaining Spring USA
AK Trigger Century USA
AK Disconector Century USA
AK Hammer Century USA
MAG 30RD MAGPUL AK 7.62x39
WASR Buttstock Military USA
AK Compensator USA
AK TANG SCREW USA
WASR Buttplate Metal USA
WASR Buttplate Screw 1" USA
AK Rear Sling Swivel USA
AK R Sling Swivel Screw USA
got the same response. look like the magic "six" parts are

Pistol grip (1)
trigger assembly (3)
Buttstock (1)
slant break (1)

(plus the magpul mag which does technically satisfy 3)

piston is now romy....

Last edited by wormraper; 09-01-2017 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 09-01-2017, 05:41 PM   #85
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I'd bet that filers who are in love with 922r are just justifying to themselves why they have tapco fcg's in their rifles "922r huggers". Filers who despise the tapco (or any other cast, us made fcg) will disregard 922r, say it's for manufacturers and keep on rockin that combloc steel. IDGAF
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Old 09-01-2017, 06:23 PM   #86
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I actually agree with the "who cares" crowd. I'm just stating what the law seems to say ... I'm FULLY aware that the chances are about on par with lightening striking you every day for a month, but I see no problem for those who REALLY want to stay as strict as possible.


to the OP... you changed out TWO of the U.S. parts of 6 in your WASR by changing furniture, but replaced them with the followers and mag plates, so you're good to go. Honestly, don't worry about it.
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:18 PM   #87
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Very interesting topic!
Thanks very much to Nalioth, Mishaco, AKBLUE, Aceshigh and others for providing context and possibly case law.

Many people in OR, WA etc might be concerned with state employees they encounter, who could use 922r as An Excuse to cause trouble for them, even when legally shooting on federal BLM or state land.
Concern might be linked to the chance of bumping into a state/federal employee who now wears their first uniform, like Barney Fife in the tv series, who relished his authority.

Using a 20-rd. SGM mag. in a 100% original .223 Saiga at the shooting club won't even attract attention. Should we try one out? "Excuse me...what's a Say-ga?"
Putting an AKM butt stock on an original MAK 90 won't make a difference. All people see---All They See--- is an AK which can't compare in quality to an AR or other 'accurate' gun.

Few people at this Large private club--only the rare AK shooters-- have even Heard of 922r . The huge, 99% vast majority are Glock, S&W, AR, typical hunting rifle and skeet people etc who are in the dark about it.

Last edited by Laufer; 09-01-2017 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:32 PM   #88
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Since this discussion is continuing, i'll share a talk I had with a lawyor friend back around 2004 while building a couple FN FALs.
The FAL has 17 parts under 922(r), so its a bigger pain in the ass if you want to make it compliant...and many US made FAL FCGs were crap or even down-right unsafe back at that time.

Anyhow, much of that conversation was pretty standard and brought up points already mentioned in this thread.

But...there was 1 thing i found interesting.

OK, of the 20 countable parts, 3 are the magazine right?
So say with a WASR10, if you put a Magpul PMag in it, then you'd only need 3 more parts....say FCG. Then you could use everything else as foreign.

And then...when you take that mag out? Now the gun only has 13 countable parts, not 16.
It is still legal under 922(r) with just that US mfg FCG.

But wait, what if the FCG is still foreign?

Going further into the definition of "assemble." Since that is one of the key words in 922(r), and since 3 of the 20 parts are in the magazine....

That leads to this....

A rifle like a WASR10 isn't "assembled" (fully) until it has a magazine in it.
Everytime you insert/remove a magazine, you are assembling/disassembling it.
It is going from a firearm to an incomplete pile of parts, because it is not functional without the mag in it and because the magazine is a major component under 922(r) (seriously 3 parts? that's more than the operating system gets lol).
So if you store your WASR10 without a magazine in it, it could not be in violation of 922(r) because it is not assembled (fully), and 922(r) doesn't apply until the assembly process is finished.

It is an interesting thought experiment...and even a fun one.

In the real world of law....
First no local police or wildlife officer is at all likely to even have heard of 922(r). Most know that machineguns are illegal, and many that a barrel needs to be at least 18" long (seriously, many still think that's the minimum length).
If they took you and your gun to jail, they'd have to explain why to their Chief. Unless he's on crack, he's not going to hold someone over something like this....ever. Come on, look at the world we live in regarding police brutality claims etc.
If in the US we get to a point where people can have their property taken from them without reason/cause? well we have a much bigger problem to say the least.
And then goodluck finding a DA willing to even draw up charges against someone on 922(r). Have you ever met someone in that job? if so, you know why.
If the case were put before a judge, he would tell the DA to get the hell out of his courtroom and not to come back until he had an actual case.
Even if you somehow found a judge and DA willing to take such a case on, any half-sober defense atterny could get it dismissed on a technicality in about...5 minutes.
But even if you had managed to piss the judge off by screwing his daughter and also piss the DA off by stealing his netflicks password, and even if the defense atterny is 100% drunk;

How the fuck do you think anyone, anywhere in the whole USA could even begin to explain the first thing about 922(r) to 12 people on a jury?

And don't look at the ATF...they don't care and don't want any part of 922(r). Its been around for nearly 30 years and they've yet to try and clarify it once or arrest someone for it a single time.
Compare that with the SIG Armbrace. They've written several letters and come out with several statements regarding that thing, and its only been around a handful of years.
Guess which one of these 2 things the ATF cares about more?
And they really only even keep talkinga bout that brace because gun owners keep bringing it up and forcing them to talk about it over and over and over.
Its also a shit load more visible on a rifle than a half dozen US mfg parts in one.

You do realise we live in a world now where people post pictures daily of themselves smoking weed on Facebook for the whole world to see...and you know what? The police aren't showing up magically at their doors to haul them off to jail.
Also in one where its illegal to talk on your cellphone while driving, but people do that themselves every single day.
And how often do each of you do something else while driving that's technically against the law?

Why not worry about that stuff, which really could have concequences?
Why worry over something that doesn't matter to anyone in authority?

And yeah, duh if you ask a lawyor about something like this, of course they're going to tell you not to do it. That's just playing it safe. I bet if you asked a lawyor in Cali, they'd say don't own a WASR10 period. That would afterall be the absolute safest course of action.


The letter of the law and how it is applied in the real world are often two different things.

I agree, by the letter "assemble" here does apply to everyone, period, no matter what.
However, the gov't has chosen to apply 922(r) only to manufacturers. This really is the only even half-way enforcible way to do it, and they know this.
Even then...they aren't checking...they let the manufacturers do their own thing, and in turn, they themselves give lipservice to 922(r) by tossing in some US made parts.

This why everyone's happy: the law is technically being followed, the ATF isn't burdened with inforcing the uninforcible, US manufacturers can keep building guns from kits or importing them, and other US companies get some business selling 922(r) parts.

See....everyone's happy, there's a good balance, it all works fine, and there are some neat guns on the market.

Just..don't rock the goddamned boat! Leave well enough alone!
Didn't your mother ever tell you that if you didn't stop picking at a scab that it would never heal?
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:34 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micahgartman View Post
I sent an email to Century asking which parts in my WASR are Made In America. I just received this response from Robert Pittman:

US MADE PARTS:

AK Pistol Grip Nut USA
AK Pistol Grip Screw USA
AK Pistol Grip Blk Plastic USA
AK Retaining Spring USA
AK Trigger Century USA
AK Disconector Century USA
AK Hammer Century USA
MAG 30RD MAGPUL AK 7.62x39
WASR Buttstock Military USA
AK Compensator USA
AK TANG SCREW USA
WASR Buttplate Metal USA
WASR Buttplate Screw 1" USA
AK Rear Sling Swivel USA
AK R Sling Swivel Screw USA
This is the info I was seeking.

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
to the OP... you changed out TWO of the U.S. parts of 6 in your WASR by changing furniture, but replaced them with the followers and mag plates, so you're good to go. Honestly, don't worry about it.
In addition to the furniture(2 parts), I'm planning on swapping out the pistol grip too, but as I read it, my rifle will still only have 10 foreign parts and will maintain compliance. Now the ATF will be off my back and I can get back to printing off 'lightning links'....I kid I kid

Man what a sweet rifle this WASR is. It's going to make me an AK junkie -- Looking forward to shooting it this weekend.
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:41 PM   #90
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This is the info I was seeking.
Are you sure?

You have no idea whether the poster has a 2003 WASR or a fresh-off-the-boat 2017 production WASR.


Just thought I'd bring that up, what with you wanting to be so accurate and all . . .
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Old 09-01-2017, 08:57 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
Are you sure?

You have no idea whether the poster has a 2003 WASR or a fresh-off-the-boat 2017 production WASR.


Just thought I'd bring that up, what with you wanting to be so accurate and all . . .
The friendly folks over at Csspecs also confirmed the same ITT. As long as the trigger group and slant-brake are in the clear, w/ the U.S. mag base-plates/followers, my rifle is in the clear.

I was also curious to confirm the origin of the parts simply for the sake of knowing.

As of now, the less (crucial to the rifle's operation)American-made parts on my AKM, the better. I can live with a trigger group and muzzle attachment.

I've been following the Riley Defense thread/Youtube vid review on here, and almost pulled the trigger on one, but opted for the Cugir(proven commodity) instead. Forged vs. cast was a major decider. I see that Riley is now offering forged trunnions on their models, with the intent to eventually make them in house.

Perhaps down the road, after I've seen AKOU take one for a rough run, I might go out and grab one too.
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:04 PM   #92
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Seems our legal group has arrived. Do as you as you wish, it seems to be a trend anyway.

The law is vague so they can lock up anyone, look to your taxes and you will know this is childs play.
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:12 PM   #93
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The law is vague so they can lock up anyone,
Yet they haven't.... Ever...
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Old 09-01-2017, 09:27 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Skatmanfu View Post
This is the info I was seeking.

Thanks.



In addition to the furniture(2 parts), I'm planning on swapping out the pistol grip too, but as I read it, my rifle will still only have 10 foreign parts and will maintain compliance. Now the ATF will be off my back and I can get back to printing off 'lightning links'....I kid I kid

Man what a sweet rifle this WASR is. It's going to make me an AK junkie -- Looking forward to shooting it this weekend.

oh yeah, I was including the pistol grip as part of the "2 US parts exchanged"... the butt stock and the grip... the handguard is still seemingly foreign, so it wouldn't have mattered anyways... either way. have fun shooting. My WASR 10 doesn't arrive till Tuesday due to ground shipping (grrrr) but hopefully I'll have my MAK 90 in hand tomorrow so I can go shooting on Sunday with my buddies
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Old 09-02-2017, 08:51 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by nalioth View Post
Are you sure?

You have no idea whether the poster has a 2003 WASR or a fresh-off-the-boat 2017 production WASR.


Just thought I'd bring that up, what with you wanting to be so accurate and all . . .
It's a 2016 model. The serial number is A1-5XXXX-16.
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Old 09-02-2017, 10:56 AM   #96
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Plenty of scenarios he listed could invoke an issue for an owner.
and yet, none of them EVER has.

that's right.

not

one

single

time

you remind me of that guy that drives 53 in the left lane right next to the semi "to keep all them leadfoots doing what's right".
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:03 AM   #97
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and yet, none of them EVER has.
Because you know what history has happened to 320 Million people in America......from ATF enforcement

Riiiiiiiight. Cool story.
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you remind me of that guy that drives 53 in the left lane right next to the semi "to keep all them leadfoots doing what's right".
Yes, I rode by Hayabusa in 1st gear that goes up to 89mph , doing only 53mph in the left lane just to control people. You got me!!!!!

You remind me of the people who refuse to acknowledge anything even when it's right in front of you, who end up getting locked up.

I can only show you what we have discovered, it's up to you to decide whether or not you want to follow it.

You want to mock it and pick a fight over it, that's your own prerogative. LoL

I merely posted it for educational purposes to the OP.
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Old 09-02-2017, 11:34 AM   #98
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Because you know what history has happened to 320 Million people in America......from ATF enforcement

Riiiiiiiight. Cool story.


Yes, I rode by Hayabusa in 1st gear that goes up to 89mph , doing only 53mph in the left lane just to control people. You got me!!!!!

You remind me of the people who refuse to acknowledge anything even when it's right in front of you, who end up getting locked up.

I can only show you what we have discovered, it's up to you to decide whether or not you want to follow it.

You want to mock it and pick a fight over it, that's your own prerogative. LoL

I merely posted it for educational purposes to the OP.
I refuse to acknowledge things that aren't proven. The whole debate over 922r goes back decades. There are literally dozens of threads like this one on forums from years ago. Not one lick of proof in one of them to back the horror stories of what's going to or could happen. There's nothing on the inet, nothing out of millions of post from millions of gun owners over the course of decades. Add to the fact that in this day and age, news travels fast. Information about gun owners being busted, shootings, LGS being raided is damn near reported as soon as it happens. If, out of millions of gun owners, people were getting jammed up for 922r compliance, some one, any one, would know about it. There would have been court records, they likely would have appealed, it would be a big to do being that the whole 922r thing has been a hot topic for years..
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Old 09-02-2017, 01:39 PM   #99
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There's possibility and probability. Probability is that which is likely to happen. Possibility is that which may happen, but is not likely. My vote on 922r enforcement is its a possibility. Enough already, holly cow this never ends. Worry about something important.
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Old 09-02-2017, 05:39 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micahgartman View Post
I sent an email to Century asking which parts in my WASR are Made In America. I just received this response from Robert Pittman:

US MADE PARTS:

AK Pistol Grip Nut USA
AK Pistol Grip Screw USA
AK Pistol Grip Blk Plastic USA
AK Retaining Spring USA
AK Trigger Century USA
AK Disconector Century USA
AK Hammer Century USA
MAG 30RD MAGPUL AK 7.62x39
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WASR Buttplate Metal USA
WASR Buttplate Screw 1" USA
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Thanks for posting this. I'd be willing to bet Century also adds the recoil spring and hammer spring judging from the appearance of the springs alone, but I could be wrong.
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Old 09-02-2017, 07:04 PM   #101
mishaco
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You know, I've often wondered about the hammer spring too.

On the one hand, it would be faster and easier to use a US spring that's already on the US hammer when installing.
On the other, it would save a little money for them to use the spring that comes on the original foreign hammer.

For Century it would be a true Sophie's choice.....to take the easier route? or to take the cheaper one? lol

I've bought the left over Romie parts before...from Centerfire I think it was.
The bag included a gas piston, Romie pistol grip, hammer, semi disconnector, and Romie trigger. The hammer didn't ahve the spring on it, but the disconnector and trigger were still held together with a hollow pin, and the spring in between them too.

There was a separate baggy full of Romie slant brakes too.

I always seem to end up with random crap like that, but it was only $5 a bag! figured it was worth that just to have some spare grips.

The best thing to come out of this thread is the discovery that newer WASR-10s come with the original Romie gas piston.
So thank you for that, its a tid bit worth knowing. I was still under the impression they had US pistons like before.
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Old 09-02-2017, 07:19 PM   #102
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Jesus christ it's like people WANT 922r to be a thing. Outside of importers.. it's not. I put Romanian FCGs in my SAR1s and WASRS. And no one gives a fuck.
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Old 09-02-2017, 07:32 PM   #103
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922(r) can be very confusing not to mention 100% idiotic and pointless. How in the hell does having US made parts matter in anyway? Does it make some politician feel better somehow?
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Old 09-02-2017, 09:29 PM   #104
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Do large numbers of people swap the nice smooth triggers in MAK 90s for other, US-made trigger groups, strictly out of Paranoia due to lack of information?

Not with mine. And again, the only new parts on my original MAK 90 are the AKM butt stock and matching hand guards.
That 100% all original .223 Saiga's only magazines 'in use' are the 20-rd. SGMs.

Legal length barrels (or with SBR), no alterations to Select-Fire, no membership in a gang or participation in an actual felony, so why be paranoid?

Last edited by Laufer; 09-03-2017 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 09-02-2017, 10:00 PM   #105
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I heard a very tradgic story from a member here 2 weeks ago.

He had a nice MAK90 that he wanted to deban and turn into a spiker.
At first he purchased a set of original Chinese wood furniture for it, with correct handguard, stock, and grip.
Then he heard of 922(r), and wanting to be a good citizen, he sold off that nice original wood stock set; instead paying much more for an American made reproduction of spiker furniture.
In the end, he didn't like the US made stuff, had already sold the original, and just kind of became disgusted with the whole MAK90 thing.
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