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Old 10-10-2017, 09:40 PM   #36
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I've read that plate won't fit in Yugos. The Red Star Arms retaining plate will fit for sure.
yes just found that out so i ordered a retaining plate from the guy on here that sells the ones he does for 4 dollars - thanks for looking out
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:41 PM   #37
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After having trouble getting Tapco retaining plates to fit in several rifles (Polish AKMS Underfolder, WASR10 Underfolder, TGI AMD65, and yes some Zastava variants) I switched to using the Red Star trigger bow/plate. I've had much better luck with it, and have only had to do minor filing work on a couple rifles. These included my old ORF-74 on an Armory-USA receiver and my OPAP. The Armory rec. was just a bit out of spec, and the OPAP's 1.5mm Yugo thing changed the position of a couple things in very minor ways.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:27 AM   #38
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That the carrier hits the rear trunnion is normal. The question is how hard. On my NPAP it was very hard with stock recoil spring. It got much softer with a new Wolff spring.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:48 AM   #39
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Sometimes it looks worse because the rear trunnion is not riveted perfectly square so one side gets all the beating, either way it (in my experience) does not progress or cause any problems. If we are talking kit builds then I'd be more likely to suspect overgassed, factory combloc not so much.
supposebly Rob and a few other people think the N-pap is over gassed from the factory a bit too much, still using gas pressures for when a grenade launcher was attached. Thus his frame getting cracked after it was beat to shit
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:55 AM   #40
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Hard to say, anyone know if the gas port is larger? Doesn't the gas port get closed (gas block shutoff) when launching? If so, why would they overgassed it?
not sure, I know he, Misha and a few others think it's rather over gassed. That was their assumption, but I'm not sure if they did port measurement sizes, I just remember Rob saying he thought that it was way too harsh and was most likely due to overgassing

we DO know the spring is way too weak, just wondering if putting a regular power or a +15% wolff spring would be better (depends on how strong the +15% one is and whether it keeps it from battering the frame compared to the weaker regular strength)
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:08 PM   #41
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How do you know the spring is "way too weak"? That is a bold statement. Is it strong enough to chamber a round? Sometimes people new to AK's befuddle me with their reasoning and fixes.
that was according to Robski and several online reviewers, not me. They tested out the spring and it was WAY weaker than a standard spring in other guns

he also mentions in his test videos that it was beating his shoulder with excessive recoil like a jackhammer and beating the shit out of his trunnion
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:13 PM   #42
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Copy that. I'd be inclined to use a NOS combloc spring of standard weight, not the fluffy extra power version.
yeah, I was trying to decide between the XP or the regular Wolff when I pick up my N-pap DF... wasn't sure if just a regular spring would fix it, or if the over gassing problem that a few people were speculating on might require the extra "oomph" of the XP (as for overgassed, a few guys on TheAKforum.net measured the port and said it was nearly 20% larger than standard)

Last edited by wormraper; 10-11-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:51 PM   #43
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Copy that. I'd be inclined to use a NOS combloc spring of standard weight, not the fluffy extra power version.

Rob's might have been overgassed, who knows. If so, overspringing is not the solution, solution is reducing gas somehow. Overspringing is for fudd.

I'm just curious, why is overspringing not the solution? What could the average AK user do to the gas port to reduce the gas pressure? Simply cutting into the piston is monkey business.

My NPAP DF had an extremely sharp recoil impulse on my shoulder. I could feel the carrier slamming hard into the rear trunnion. I put in a proper recoil spring and the sharp recoil impulse in gone without having compromised any reliability. A stronger recoil spring just slows down the carrier a bit to reduce stress on the rear trunnion rivets, and most importantly tensile stress on the receiver, especially at the front where this stress focuses (battlefield vegas NPAP). They shot many thousands of FA rounds through it with an oversized gas port and a weak spring to begin with.

Of course, a stronger spring will slam the carrier against the front trunnion with more energy, but it's nothing the carrier and front trunnion can't handle. One doesn't need buy the extra power spring. A new regular spring is enough because the stock one is a joke.

Last edited by Made in Austria; 10-11-2017 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:19 PM   #44
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sadly not many options for Under folder's though
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:45 PM   #45
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lol, I'd like thet SAM7s if they were about $500 cheaper where they're actually worth. Pretty much any arsenal is overpriced by at LEAST 50% imo
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:10 PM   #46
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I agree the arsenal stamped are overpriced, hard to say about the milled with no other milled combloc to compare it to. These milled feel much different when compared side to side, worth it when that is what you crave. I'm a hug fan if you can't tell, I'm not saying they are without flaws, just saying I love em.
I'm still not sure milled has any real advantages over stamped except for weight
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:44 PM   #47
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LOL!! I love the comparison to wide assed women
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:30 PM   #48
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I agree the arsenal stamped are overpriced, hard to say about the milled with no other milled combloc to compare it to. These milled feel much different when compared side to side, worth it when that is what you crave. I'm a hug fan if you can't tell, I'm not saying they are without flaws, just saying I love em.
I never liked Arsenal pissed off because they rape you with the prices. However I now have five all milled,and they are as good as the Chinese in my opinion.My first arsenal was a 101s with a fantastic trigger,said it couldn't get any better well the SamR761 is, although side by side they are identical. doesn't matter now i'm done, with a dozen or so high end and three low end ak's. My opap and two npap underfolders I consider low end ,but 100% so far. The opap is nib,and one npap underfolder.Love the urban ert recoil pad so sweet.
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:46 PM   #49
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I have the ALG springs in all my Npaps, NOT a single complaint here. I sleep better at night with them installed....LMAO
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:52 PM   #50
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How do you know the spring is "way too weak"? That is a bold statement. Is it strong enough to chamber a round? Sometimes people new to AK's befuddle me with their reasoning and fixes.
Because I said so

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Old 10-11-2017, 07:26 PM   #51
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I really like the look of the GL Core stock in some of Rob's videos lately. Does anyone know if it can be fitted to an NPAP? Will the M 4 adapter work on an NPAP? I've tried to contact both Rob and Definitive Arms but have heard nothing back from them. BTW in addition to replacing the original recoil spring with a Wolfe spring I also added a fighter muzzle brake. Made a big difference.

Last edited by K-9Tom; 10-11-2017 at 07:38 PM. Reason: add more info
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:01 PM   #52
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Regarding the spring, simple. I took one out of my NPAP and measured it. Then we ran a few hundred rounds through it. Took the spring out again, measured again, and it was noticeably shorter. So it had collapsed some. This combined with the sharper felt recoil lead me to feel the springs weren't as good as they could be.
So I swapped them out.

My NPDF has a Wolf and my M92PV has a std Polish.

As to the gas port size, i screwed up there. I had the block off my OPAP last year and didn't measure the port. I really should have. Both it and the NPAP use the same barrel, so they 'should' have the same size port also.
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Old 10-13-2017, 09:02 PM   #53
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Iím glad I got a N-pap back when they were selling for $480 with a $50 rebate. They seem to have shot back up to $630. Very little rifles in the Ak market now. Imports are all but done. Good thing is, plenty of Arís out there to take our money instead
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Old 10-13-2017, 09:31 PM   #54
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Iím glad I got a N-pap back when they were selling for $480 with a $50 rebate. They seem to have shot back up to $630. Very little rifles in the Ak market now. Imports are all but done. Good thing is, plenty of Arís out there to take our money instead
Speak for yourself, but I don't plan to drop a nickel on another AR anytime in the near future. I've got no beef with you, but I swear.... I really think you just like causing shit with the AR comments.


Obviously, the AK market is different than it was, but there are still nice options out there besides an AR.
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:08 PM   #55
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Speak for yourself, but I don't plan to drop a nickel on another AR anytime in the near future. I've got no beef with you, but I swear.... I really think you just like causing shit with the AR comments.


Obviously, the AK market is different than it was, but there are still nice options out there besides an AR.

Wow, your too sensitive dude. Don't buy an Ar if you don't want to. Your loss
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:17 PM   #56
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I'd buy another AR15 if i ran across one that interested me. So far, I have not but I wouldn't mind replacing my MK 18 Mod 0.
I had an orig Colt MK18 upper and liked it, but a Colt collector offered me way too much money for it...so so-long.

The last one I bought was the reproduction XM177E2 from Troy. Shot it again weekend before last, and yep still really enjoy it. Just a great handling little gun.

That T91 upper from Wolf interested me at first too, but i don't know. It is assembled here, not over there and they don't seem to offer the rest of the kit like the buttstock and grip so eh.

I'd love to find a Korean mfg M16A1 upper. That'd just be neat.

But since none of those are around ATM and a lot of interesting AKs and AK parts kits are, that's the direction I've been focusing this summer.
AofA has been bad for my bank account. First a DDR MPI-KM kit, then an early Polish AKM, and now most recently a 1963 dated Romanian PM-63 kit.
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:17 PM   #57
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Pay no attention to the lying douche canoe in the corner
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:40 PM   #58
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:40 PM   #59
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I'd do the standard strength replacement spring, just for peace of mind. Is it a 2 rivet or a 3 rivet model?
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Old 10-15-2017, 10:06 PM   #60
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Wow, your too sensitive dude. Don't buy an Ar if you don't want to. Your loss
Not senstative at all, Iíve just seen your instigating comments before, and itís kind of old now. I have a few ARs, and theyíre great guns. Buying ARs because AKs have dried up, not a solution to me at all. Personally, I donít buy into the AK vs AR bit... They have their place, and both have their ups and downs. Like I said, I have no beef with you, but your comment looked like you were starting chit.

Carry on, buddy.
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Old 10-16-2017, 07:35 AM   #61
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Aside from furniture issues in quality and stock comb the NPAP should serve you well functionally and be GTG from what I've heard although got some dings from AKOU torture test (funny thing, I have about 9 AKs but have yet to get an NPAP myself, opted for the WASR 10 at that last decision point, may be on my next one if prices stay low). I think Atlantic owes me a Christmas card this year for funding their kids college fund! Second the encyclopedic info offered by Mishaco, he truly knows his business.
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Old 10-16-2017, 09:37 AM   #62
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Where the f is Aceshigh, he usually jumps in wherever he can to shit-talk Arsenal. Seems odd not to hear from the old bag-o-wind.
He's taking a break from the board to get some projects done on his house and other properties. I just PM'd him a few days ago.
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Old 10-16-2017, 12:15 PM   #63
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I cannot believe this N PAP thing has come back to haunt us. Rob Ski went out of his way to test these rifles TWICE ! And both times came back as fails. So do your research and find out for yourself OP ! JEEZ !
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Old 10-16-2017, 11:38 PM   #64
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Anyone know if NPAP is silencer friendly? As in concentric threads and able to handle the back pressure?
Shot a DF suppressed at the AK shootout, functioned fine but the gas did seep through the recoil buffer cut out and had some force hitting you in the eye.
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Old 10-17-2017, 01:27 AM   #65
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I disagree. The NPAP did not fail Rob's 2nd 5k test, and the only part that really broke was the buttstock, which is a crap made US part from Century. They put the same stock on their current WASR10s too, so its reasonable to assume it would fail in a WASR 5k test too.


Not saying the NPAP is perfect, but at current prices, you get a very good rifle for the coin.
My NP-DF has been 100% for over a year now....hey for me personally, it has a better trackrecord than my Polytech Legend lol.
Only thing I recommend is to swap out the recoil spring, and eventually the buttstock (if fixed stock) too.
Then your rifle should be gtg.

At least, sure beats a RAS47 right?
And is much cheaper than any Arsenal, even the SLR-107R.
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Old 10-17-2017, 01:31 AM   #66
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I disagree. The NPAP did not fail Rob's 2nd 5k test, and the only part that really broke was the buttstock, which is a crap made US part from Century. They put the same stock on their current WASR10s too, so its reasonable to assume it would fail in a WASR 5k test too.


Not saying the NPAP is perfect, but at current prices, you get a very good rifle for the coin.
My NP-DF has been 100% for over a year now....hey for me personally, it has a better trackrecord than my Polytech Legend lol.
Only thing I recommend is to swap out the recoil spring, and eventually the buttstock (if fixed stock) too.
Then your rifle should be gtg.

At least, sure beats a RAS47 right?
And is much cheaper than any Arsenal, even the SLR-107R.
it KIND of failed his last 5k round test. he cracked the receiver between the 4K and 5K round mark
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:01 AM   #67
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I disagree. The NPAP did not fail Rob's 2nd 5k test
It failed horribly Misha. It had multiple cycling issues, the recoil spring retaining button fell out, and the receiver cracked.
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Old 10-17-2017, 02:57 AM   #68
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It was still working at the end of the test.
Which is more than others.
Rob did give it away to a viewer too, recommending they keep an eye on the rear trunnion area.

The crack was very small, and 'might' have never happened with a different recoil spring.
The spring loaded latch coming out isn't a failure since the part effectively does nothing. It is just left over from grenade launching funtimes. The rifle would work exactly the same without it. Rob reinstalled it with a rock if memory serves right?
As to multiple cycling failures, i recall a few but nothing catastrophic, and causes could have been a number of things.

This site seems in love with the OPAP, yet people continue to disregard the NPAP. I am sorry, but that is a double standard.
Remember people loved the NPAP a lot more before his first 5k test. I just feel that if you condemn one, you must at least question the other. I know people think the OPAP's 1.5mm receiver would keep it from having any cracks or other issues, but this is just a theory. It could absolutely be true or a 5k test could reveal the same shortcomings. Without one, we just don't know for sure.

Keep in mind I did say the NPAP wasn't perfect and have agreed that the recoil spring is a weak point that needs switching out.
I am not even defending a rifle because I own it...I don't have an NPAP M70, either personally or in the store.
I do ahve an OPAP and NP-DF, which are different models, though all 3 are very similar and all built from the same basic materials and at the same factory by the same workers.

At $600 and even $550, the NPAP is still a much better buy than the I.O. or RAS47....you'll never convince me otherwise.
Is it better than the WASR? nah not really but then again, i don't think its majorily worse. Afterall, some guys like that the NPAP has a blued finish, and some have reported better accuracy with them. Also has a heavier barrel and longer HGs, which again some folks like.

There aren't reports all over the net of NPAPs blowing up like there are of the RAS47, so when people ask for a good sub-$600 AK, I don't feel at all bad in pointing them towards the NPAP.
It'll serve them a lot longer than most US made AKs, and it won't become a health risk hehe.

This is all old news and has been said before, so sorry for repeating myself.
Just my opinion based on selling these for a few years and talking with customers and friends that have shot theirs a goodly bit.
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Old 10-17-2017, 03:52 AM   #69
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It was still working at the end of the test.
Which is more than others.
Rob did give it away to a viewer too, recommending they keep an eye on the rear trunnion area.

The crack was very small, and 'might' have never happened with a different recoil spring.
The spring loaded latch coming out isn't a failure since the part effectively does nothing. It is just left over from grenade launching funtimes. The rifle would work exactly the same without it. Rob reinstalled it with a rock if memory serves right?
As to multiple cycling failures, i recall a few but nothing catastrophic, and causes could have been a number of things.

This site seems in love with the OPAP, yet people continue to disregard the NPAP. I am sorry, but that is a double standard.
Remember people loved the NPAP a lot more before his first 5k test. I just feel that if you condemn one, you must at least question the other. I know people think the OPAP's 1.5mm receiver would keep it from having any cracks or other issues, but this is just a theory. It could absolutely be true or a 5k test could reveal the same shortcomings. Without one, we just don't know for sure.

Keep in mind I did say the NPAP wasn't perfect and have agreed that the recoil spring is a weak point that needs switching out.
I am not even defending a rifle because I own it...I don't have an NPAP M70, either personally or in the store.
I do ahve an OPAP and NP-DF, which are different models, though all 3 are very similar and all built from the same basic materials and at the same factory by the same workers.

At $600 and even $550, the NPAP is still a much better buy than the I.O. or RAS47....you'll never convince me otherwise.
Is it better than the WASR? nah not really but then again, i don't think its majorily worse. Afterall, some guys like that the NPAP has a blued finish, and some have reported better accuracy with them. Also has a heavier barrel and longer HGs, which again some folks like.

There aren't reports all over the net of NPAPs blowing up like there are of the RAS47, so when people ask for a good sub-$600 AK, I don't feel at all bad in pointing them towards the NPAP.
It'll serve them a lot longer than most US made AKs, and it won't become a health risk hehe.

This is all old news and has been said before, so sorry for repeating myself.
Just my opinion based on selling these for a few years and talking with customers and friends that have shot theirs a goodly bit.
Mish, you freakin voice of reason. I love the way you express yourself. Would have loved to have had you as a history teacher, Although Mr. Whalen was incredible and one of the few I actually remember from so long ago.

Anyway, guns.. yeah, ummm.. I've been thinking about picking up an older milled arsenal (SLR95) from my buddy but I just can't justify the $1k he is asking. It would come with a bunch of goodies like a real bulgy stock set, lower tang, and some mags as well as the uncomfortable plastic butthole stock he for some reason keeps on it even though he has bulgy wood (go figure?), but I just don't wanna spend the cash. I love oddball, non standard things which is what probably made the decision to go OPAP over WASR and AK over AR in the first place. I don't have a huge budget for toys but I've also been seriously considering the NPAP DF. I've also ogled the selection you have on GB but probably won't spend any more money on myself this year. I've been tempted but have been strong. Went as far as fondling an NPDF at Fleet Farm when visiting Minnesota, but didn't pull the trigger and have it shipped to my FFL here at home. I'd own a DF model, but probably not a fixed stock version as my OPAP would just outshine it in every way with it's surplus furniture and hefty feel. The standard NP would end up being a red headed stepchild.

Anyway, just saw you on here and wanted to say hi. Have a good night.

One question, do you have to listen to your own words when you get a reply or can you skip to the actual reply? I'll stop quoting you if it is a pain in the neck. Just wondering how tough it is to navigate the files with Steven Hawking reading it to you.
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Old 10-17-2017, 10:17 AM   #70
manki77
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Originally Posted by Extra Medium View Post
I'd do the standard strength replacement spring, just for peace of mind. Is it a 2 rivet or a 3 rivet model?
Looks to be three rivet model
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