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Old 10-10-2017, 09:40 PM   #36
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I've read that plate won't fit in Yugos. The Red Star Arms retaining plate will fit for sure.
yes just found that out so i ordered a retaining plate from the guy on here that sells the ones he does for 4 dollars - thanks for looking out
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Old 10-10-2017, 09:41 PM   #37
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After having trouble getting Tapco retaining plates to fit in several rifles (Polish AKMS Underfolder, WASR10 Underfolder, TGI AMD65, and yes some Zastava variants) I switched to using the Red Star trigger bow/plate. I've had much better luck with it, and have only had to do minor filing work on a couple rifles. These included my old ORF-74 on an Armory-USA receiver and my OPAP. The Armory rec. was just a bit out of spec, and the OPAP's 1.5mm Yugo thing changed the position of a couple things in very minor ways.
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:58 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
well, depends. A spring reduces speed one way, but speeds it up the other. At least in the 1911 world a stronger recoil spring has both negative and positive effects. It reduces frame battery by slowing the slide's recoil backwards, but slams it forward harder putting excess wear on the barrel lug and slide lock as it slams forward, causing premature wear there. kind of a give and tack
You're right and the function of this spring is to return the bolt carrier and chamber a round. In 1911's the slide speed (on recoil) is most appropriately slowed with a square based firing pin stop (original had less radius on the base of fps than the A2), overspringing the slide has consequences to reliability so it is (generally) our last option second to main (hammer) spring which (when oversprung) also has consequences. 1911's are more fussy than AK's, when fudd oversprings his AK he probably never notices any effect on reliability or doesn't shoot enough to notice. In theory way too much spring might cause chambering problems (outrunning the mag, battering bolt/carrier cam, etc.). BCG kissing rear trunnion is normal in my experience with AK's. All of my factory combloc and chinese do this and this sample size is 12, some have weaker springs and batter more & vice versa.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:27 AM   #39
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That the carrier hits the rear trunnion is normal. The question is how hard. On my NPAP it was very hard with stock recoil spring. It got much softer with a new Wolff spring.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:38 AM   #40
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That the carrier hits the rear trunnion is normal. The question is how hard. On my NPAP it was very hard with stock recoil spring. It got much softer with a new Wolff spring.
Sometimes it looks worse because the rear trunnion is not riveted perfectly square so one side gets all the beating, either way it (in my experience) does not progress or cause any problems. If we are talking kit builds then I'd be more likely to suspect overgassed, factory combloc not so much.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:48 AM   #41
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Sometimes it looks worse because the rear trunnion is not riveted perfectly square so one side gets all the beating, either way it (in my experience) does not progress or cause any problems. If we are talking kit builds then I'd be more likely to suspect overgassed, factory combloc not so much.
supposebly Rob and a few other people think the N-pap is over gassed from the factory a bit too much, still using gas pressures for when a grenade launcher was attached. Thus his frame getting cracked after it was beat to shit
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:51 AM   #42
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What is the function of a RECOIL spring? What force is it mitigating?
The spring is not there to mitigate recoil, in a perfect world there is just enough gas to operate the action and overcome the force of this spring, there is just enough spring to reliably return the carrier and chamber a round. The spring returns the action. Excessive gas is a gas system problem.
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:54 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
supposebly Rob and a few other people think the N-pap is over gassed from the factory a bit too much, still using gas pressures for when a grenade launcher was attached. Thus his frame getting cracked after it was beat to shit
Hard to say, anyone know if the gas port is larger? Doesn't the gas port get closed (gas block shutoff) when launching? If so, why would they overgassed it?
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Old 10-11-2017, 11:55 AM   #44
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Hard to say, anyone know if the gas port is larger? Doesn't the gas port get closed (gas block shutoff) when launching? If so, why would they overgassed it?
not sure, I know he, Misha and a few others think it's rather over gassed. That was their assumption, but I'm not sure if they did port measurement sizes, I just remember Rob saying he thought that it was way too harsh and was most likely due to overgassing

we DO know the spring is way too weak, just wondering if putting a regular power or a +15% wolff spring would be better (depends on how strong the +15% one is and whether it keeps it from battering the frame compared to the weaker regular strength)
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:06 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
not sure, I know he, Misha and a few others think it's rather over gassed. That was their assumption, but I'm not sure if they did port measurement sizes, I just remember Rob saying he thought that it was way too harsh and was most likely due to overgassing

we DO know the spring is way too weak, just wondering if putting a regular power or a +15% wolff spring would be better (depends on how strong the +15% one is and whether it keeps it from battering the frame compared to the weaker regular strength)
How do you know the spring is "way too weak"? That is a bold statement. Is it strong enough to chamber a round? Sometimes people new to AK's befuddle me with their reasoning and fixes.
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:08 PM   #46
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How do you know the spring is "way too weak"? That is a bold statement. Is it strong enough to chamber a round? Sometimes people new to AK's befuddle me with their reasoning and fixes.
that was according to Robski and several online reviewers, not me. They tested out the spring and it was WAY weaker than a standard spring in other guns

he also mentions in his test videos that it was beating his shoulder with excessive recoil like a jackhammer and beating the shit out of his trunnion
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:11 PM   #47
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that was according to Robski and several online reviewers, not me. They tested out the spring and it was WAY weaker than a standard spring in other guns
Copy that. I'd be inclined to use a NOS combloc spring of standard weight, not the fluffy extra power version.

Rob's might have been overgassed, who knows. If so, overspringing is not the solution, solution is reducing gas somehow. Overspringing is for fudd.
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:13 PM   #48
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Copy that. I'd be inclined to use a NOS combloc spring of standard weight, not the fluffy extra power version.
yeah, I was trying to decide between the XP or the regular Wolff when I pick up my N-pap DF... wasn't sure if just a regular spring would fix it, or if the over gassing problem that a few people were speculating on might require the extra "oomph" of the XP (as for overgassed, a few guys on TheAKforum.net measured the port and said it was nearly 20% larger than standard)

Last edited by wormraper; 10-11-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 10-11-2017, 12:51 PM   #49
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Copy that. I'd be inclined to use a NOS combloc spring of standard weight, not the fluffy extra power version.

Rob's might have been overgassed, who knows. If so, overspringing is not the solution, solution is reducing gas somehow. Overspringing is for fudd.

I'm just curious, why is overspringing not the solution? What could the average AK user do to the gas port to reduce the gas pressure? Simply cutting into the piston is monkey business.

My NPAP DF had an extremely sharp recoil impulse on my shoulder. I could feel the carrier slamming hard into the rear trunnion. I put in a proper recoil spring and the sharp recoil impulse in gone without having compromised any reliability. A stronger recoil spring just slows down the carrier a bit to reduce stress on the rear trunnion rivets, and most importantly tensile stress on the receiver, especially at the front where this stress focuses (battlefield vegas NPAP). They shot many thousands of FA rounds through it with an oversized gas port and a weak spring to begin with.

Of course, a stronger spring will slam the carrier against the front trunnion with more energy, but it's nothing the carrier and front trunnion can't handle. One doesn't need buy the extra power spring. A new regular spring is enough because the stock one is a joke.

Last edited by Made in Austria; 10-11-2017 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:06 PM   #50
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I'm just curious, why is overspringing not the solution? What could the average AK user do to the gas port to reduce the gas pressure? Simply cutting into the piston is monkey business.

I can only speak for my NPAP DF, which had an extremely sharp recoil impulse on my shoulder. I could feel the carrier slamming hard into the rear trunnion. I put in a proper recoil spring and the sharp recoil impulse in gone without having compromised any reliability. A stronger recoil spring just slows down the carrier a bit to reduce stress on the rear trunnion rivets, and most importantly tensile stress on the receiver, especially at the front where this stress focuses (battlefield vegas NPAP). They shot many thousands of FA rounds through it with an oversized gas port and a weak spring to begin with.

Of course, a stronger spring will slam the carrier against the front trunnion with more energy, but it's nothing the carrier and front trunnion can't handle.
I understand completely, I would not want to butcher my piston. I have never had the problem so what do I know. Rob touched on some solutions in his vid. A guy could get an extra piston and cut into it, never touching the original, replacing pistons is ez. Some guys have threaded a plug into the port and drilled to suit. If I had a rifle that I suspected was truly overgassed I'd dump it and get something better, lots of good stuff available now: enjoy the availability while it lasts. Maybe someone with more build experience will step in with more gas problem solutions.
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:19 PM   #51
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sadly not many options for Under folder's though
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:37 PM   #52
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sadly not many options for Under folder's though
I like underfolder also, very sexy little package. Also, refitting furniture is a lot easier without having to fit a buttstock. Don't you like the SAM7 uf? I know they are pricey and, someday when we no longer get factory milled receiver underfolder you'll wish you got one. There was a time a few years back when there were no factory imported milled rec. AK's, only kit builds.
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Old 10-11-2017, 01:45 PM   #53
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lol, I'd like thet SAM7s if they were about $500 cheaper where they're actually worth. Pretty much any arsenal is overpriced by at LEAST 50% imo
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:01 PM   #54
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lol, I'd like thet SAM7s if they were about $500 cheaper where they're actually worth. Pretty much any arsenal is overpriced by at LEAST 50% imo
I agree the arsenal stamped are overpriced, hard to say about the milled with no other milled combloc to compare it to. These milled feel much different when compared side to side, worth it when that is what you crave. I'm a hug fan if you can't tell, I'm not saying they are without flaws, just saying I love em.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:10 PM   #55
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I agree the arsenal stamped are overpriced, hard to say about the milled with no other milled combloc to compare it to. These milled feel much different when compared side to side, worth it when that is what you crave. I'm a hug fan if you can't tell, I'm not saying they are without flaws, just saying I love em.
I'm still not sure milled has any real advantages over stamped except for weight
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:42 PM   #56
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I'm still not sure milled has any real advantages over stamped except for weight
No advantage unless that is what you want. It is hard to quantify the particular feel we get when shooting a real milled (not century cast-to-look milled) receiver AK. Stamped feel more springy, boingy, reactive; milled feels more like a machine if that makes any sense. No real quantifiable advantage to wide-assed women, we just like the way they feel.
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Old 10-11-2017, 02:44 PM   #57
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LOL!! I love the comparison to wide assed women
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:22 PM   #58
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If you choose to overspring just be on the lookout for feed related malfunctions. If you can get through 1k without a hiccup I'd say you're gtg and your carrier is not outrunning the mag. Battering the trunnion is the least of your worries, chambering takes a lot of energy out of the carrier before it hits the trunnion.
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:30 PM   #59
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I agree the arsenal stamped are overpriced, hard to say about the milled with no other milled combloc to compare it to. These milled feel much different when compared side to side, worth it when that is what you crave. I'm a hug fan if you can't tell, I'm not saying they are without flaws, just saying I love em.
I never liked Arsenal pissed off because they rape you with the prices. However I now have five all milled,and they are as good as the Chinese in my opinion.My first arsenal was a 101s with a fantastic trigger,said it couldn't get any better well the SamR761 is, although side by side they are identical. doesn't matter now i'm done, with a dozen or so high end and three low end ak's. My opap and two npap underfolders I consider low end ,but 100% so far. The opap is nib,and one npap underfolder.Love the urban ert recoil pad so sweet.
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Old 10-11-2017, 03:42 PM   #60
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Where the f is Aceshigh, he usually jumps in wherever he can to shit-talk Arsenal. Seems odd not to hear from the old bag-o-wind.
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:46 PM   #61
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I have the ALG springs in all my Npaps, NOT a single complaint here. I sleep better at night with them installed....LMAO
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Old 10-11-2017, 05:52 PM   #62
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How do you know the spring is "way too weak"? That is a bold statement. Is it strong enough to chamber a round? Sometimes people new to AK's befuddle me with their reasoning and fixes.
Because I said so

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Old 10-11-2017, 07:26 PM   #63
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I really like the look of the GL Core stock in some of Rob's videos lately. Does anyone know if it can be fitted to an NPAP? Will the M 4 adapter work on an NPAP? I've tried to contact both Rob and Definitive Arms but have heard nothing back from them. BTW in addition to replacing the original recoil spring with a Wolfe spring I also added a fighter muzzle brake. Made a big difference.

Last edited by K-9Tom; 10-11-2017 at 07:38 PM. Reason: add more info
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Old 10-11-2017, 10:01 PM   #64
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Regarding the spring, simple. I took one out of my NPAP and measured it. Then we ran a few hundred rounds through it. Took the spring out again, measured again, and it was noticeably shorter. So it had collapsed some. This combined with the sharper felt recoil lead me to feel the springs weren't as good as they could be.
So I swapped them out.

My NPDF has a Wolf and my M92PV has a std Polish.

As to the gas port size, i screwed up there. I had the block off my OPAP last year and didn't measure the port. I really should have. Both it and the NPAP use the same barrel, so they 'should' have the same size port also.
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Old 10-13-2017, 09:02 PM   #65
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Iím glad I got a N-pap back when they were selling for $480 with a $50 rebate. They seem to have shot back up to $630. Very little rifles in the Ak market now. Imports are all but done. Good thing is, plenty of Arís out there to take our money instead
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Old 10-13-2017, 09:31 PM   #66
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Iím glad I got a N-pap back when they were selling for $480 with a $50 rebate. They seem to have shot back up to $630. Very little rifles in the Ak market now. Imports are all but done. Good thing is, plenty of Arís out there to take our money instead
Speak for yourself, but I don't plan to drop a nickel on another AR anytime in the near future. I've got no beef with you, but I swear.... I really think you just like causing shit with the AR comments.


Obviously, the AK market is different than it was, but there are still nice options out there besides an AR.
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:08 PM   #67
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Speak for yourself, but I don't plan to drop a nickel on another AR anytime in the near future. I've got no beef with you, but I swear.... I really think you just like causing shit with the AR comments.


Obviously, the AK market is different than it was, but there are still nice options out there besides an AR.

Wow, your too sensitive dude. Don't buy an Ar if you don't want to. Your loss
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:17 PM   #68
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I'd buy another AR15 if i ran across one that interested me. So far, I have not but I wouldn't mind replacing my MK 18 Mod 0.
I had an orig Colt MK18 upper and liked it, but a Colt collector offered me way too much money for it...so so-long.

The last one I bought was the reproduction XM177E2 from Troy. Shot it again weekend before last, and yep still really enjoy it. Just a great handling little gun.

That T91 upper from Wolf interested me at first too, but i don't know. It is assembled here, not over there and they don't seem to offer the rest of the kit like the buttstock and grip so eh.

I'd love to find a Korean mfg M16A1 upper. That'd just be neat.

But since none of those are around ATM and a lot of interesting AKs and AK parts kits are, that's the direction I've been focusing this summer.
AofA has been bad for my bank account. First a DDR MPI-KM kit, then an early Polish AKM, and now most recently a 1963 dated Romanian PM-63 kit.
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:17 PM   #69
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:40 PM   #70
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