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Old 11-26-2017, 04:09 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by bulldozer1 View Post
Sighting in a 10 inch barrel M92 yesterday. 25 yards GoldenTiger. This was my last group.





I have never understood the myth of AK inaccuracy.
If I can quickly fire a full magazine of bulk, case, Tula, Golden Tiger, ect., and get 90+% of them on an 8" paper plate at 100 yards I am quite satisfied.
I have not had the opportunity to shoot longer distances, but ringing a gong at 200 yards, I don't see a problem.
Much beyond that you should probably choose a different tool.

First time out with this M92 with a just mounted Aimpoint H-1. First target 25 yards.
Sighted in aiming at the center, then worked around the edges, from bottom right, clockwise, fine tuning. You can see the first group of three out in the white by itself.
Final group, top right.

^^^ Yep, the PAP M92 is surprisingly accurate even with the likes of Wolf, TulAmmo, etc.

Below is the target from my initial sighting in of mine. Believe it or not, I threw it on the bench, aimed at the bottom edge of the black silhouette on the target from 25 yards, and these were the first 5 shots. The Zastava employee that put mine together did an excellent job, I didn't have to adjust the front post at all ---




You're right about the 200 yards as well. Even with only irons it will ring torso sized steel every time. In fact on the same day at the same range with the same ammo it easily outshot my 16" barreled Saiga. I have made consistent(at least 50% or so anyway) hits out to 400 yards with the little beast using irons. I am pleasantly surprised with how accurate it is. Hopefully I can document such accuracy this coming weekend to share here.

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Old 11-26-2017, 09:03 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
Standard ammo as in steel cased stuff like Wolf sells is not very good..
Only in 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 is poor quality ammo the standard.
With most common rounds the quality that wolf steel brings would be considered a joke.
To put things in perspective some cheap Mosburg shotguns with slugs will out shoot good rifles with wolf ammo.

What A good rifle does with crap ammo tells nothing about the rifle.
I'd bet that CZ with good ammo is at 3/4" or better all day long just like there other models based on the same action.

The 7.62x39 round can be very very accurate it just is not going to be $3.99 a box.
The 7.62x39 will never be a good long range round.
Flight time and poor trajectory kill it's ability after 200 yards .

Time and time again guys will say the 7.62x39 is not accurate . This is simply not true. It's the parent round to arguably several of the most accurate target rounds on earth.
There is nothing that is a major deterrent to good accuracy.
It's less than sharp shoulder junctions do promote case stretch and make reloading a bit harder but with good brass it's no differant than any other round.

A 1-10 twist or about seen in most AK'S and other rifles is way to fast for the short 123 grain bullets normal seen .
It makes little sense to me to have a twist rate better suited for 165 to 180 grain bullets on a AK.
over spinning a good bullet does not have a horrable affect but over spinning poor quality in balanced bullet like 99% of 7.63x39 ammo is, kills accuracy.

The standard 7.62x39 round will stabilize fine in a much slower twist . 1-14 would likely be better suited and even a 1-16 would likely work well.
Consider what a simular size round the 30 bench rest runs with high BC bullets .
Even many 308 win rifles run a 1-12 with heavier bullets the 1-10 or 1- 9.5 twist AK'S run make little sense to me.
Might be good for a 180 grain or heavy subsonic that are not avaliable and not really used by any military in any quanity.

Best 7.62x39 group I have ever shot was with a 1-14 twist.

If your going to shoot crap ammo best to not over spin it.
I absolutely agree that standard mil style or steel cased 7.62x39 ammo is not great.

What I disagree with is your understanding of how accurate the average rifle is on it's own before ammo choice and the shooter are in play.

Perhaps I misunderstand you [and if so I apologize to everyone for the thread hijack], but if I'm to believe that most rifles are sub MOA [and the only reason they don't shoot that is because of ammo choice and the shooter] and a lot of them are even 3/4 MOA, then I would need evidence of this to sway my opinion. Nothing against you friend. I wouldn't believe my own father if he said what I think you're saying.

We just simply disagree on this one.
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Old 11-26-2017, 11:30 AM   #73
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My Polish akms is so accurate I can actually hit the ground if I point it in that general direction.
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Old 11-26-2017, 11:50 AM   #74
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This is 100yds with my C39 classic (I know, I know already!) with the TWS dogleg and a cheap UTG BugBuster 3x9, Wolf HPs. This is the very best I could do from a bench. The windage held pretty good once I got it clicked over to the right a little. There is a group of 4-5 that are pretty tight. My WASR holds about the same. The AK 762x39 is what it is and we all have bolts with big glass that can stay in the orange all day long at 100yds. Not sure what the OP means by "I fire a 3 round group bullet holes are touching. Fire another 3, same deal but on a diffrent part of the plate. They dont want to stay together".

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Old 11-26-2017, 12:15 PM   #75
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I absolutely agree that standard mil style or steel cased 7.62x39 ammo is not great.

What I disagree with is your understanding of how accurate the average rifle is on it's own before ammo choice and the shooter are in play.

Perhaps I misunderstand you [and if so I apologize to everyone for the thread hijack], but if I'm to believe that most rifles are sub MOA [and the only reason they don't shoot that is because of ammo choice and the shooter] and a lot of them are even 3/4 MOA, then I would need evidence of this to sway my opinion. Nothing against you friend. I wouldn't believe my own father if he said what I think you're saying.

We just simply disagree on this one.
1st I appreciate the duscussion. No problem.

I stated in one of the above posts MOST AK'S can do 1.5" and it's not a shock to see 1". With good ammo ,trigger and my cantalever mounts.

How many AK'S have you seen or have personaly shot with Good ammo a really good trigger and a optic mount that is not influenced by reciver flex and shoot off good bags on a good bench in good conditions ??? I'm going to say zero.
I was the only guy doing a cantalever mount for years now there is one on the market that may be as good.

I said my AMD 65 will hit 1" with the old PMC soft points and it will.
That's with a large optic and about a 3 pound trigger.
That's shoot off of bags on a good bench.
I can repeat those groups or slightly better with hand loads.

I have a Romy kit build with a factory barrel that has a cantalever mount that has done some 1" 5 shot 100 yard groups .
I have a Saiga fore end on it not the factory hand guards and retainers. It has a safe to carry tapco trigger that is pretty predictable. For load work up I use a fixed 24x optic . That's something else I suspect you have never seen on a AK .
but I can can get pretty consistant groups out of it with a 110 Vmax

Getting 5 shots in a tight group is no easy feat.
Hammer forged barrels that are as light as the AKM start to walk at about 4 shots.

The AMD pistol I have is the most accurate FACTORY barrel military AK variant I have personaly shot. And it has dipped under 1"
A few times but I'd certainly call it 1" capable.

With custom barrels and other mods 1" and better is easy .
I have built a bunch of them in various caliburs.

I have a 6MM BRX with a sporter weight barrel ,my mount and trigger work that is safe to carry and hunt with on
Basic home bent non hardened Tapco that's a screw build to boot I'd take a sub 1" moa bet with on about any day the winds down.
No special bolt truing or carrier fitting. Even a hammer forged barrel


With a crappy mount that is reciver affected a stock trigger on a factory type rifle 1" is tough with any factory ammo even lapua.
It's just to hard to shoot and the optic won't hold zero well enough.

I'm doing a 6.5 grendel next. Bought a barrel off the classifieds here. First one I haven't made in years
I spent a hour in the middle of the night trying to get a blemished regulate side mount to no avail because there site sucked or had issues. Waste of time
I wanted to do back to back testing of a better side mount and one that's not reciver affected in a apples to apples test same gun ammo trigger and optic. I'm rebarreling a existing rifle that happens to have a side rail to allow this test.
I feel my mounts are a big part of my success getting AK based rifles to perform .
I have never shoot a 1" group with a side rail or beryl type mount with any barrel or ammo .
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Old 11-26-2017, 12:25 PM   #76
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http://www.akfiles.com/forums/attach...6&d=1440883319
While not stock barrel wise.
This is a consistant 3/4" moa rifle.
It's not done in that pic .
But that is my latest mount . Nothing touches the reciver.
That's a 6MM BRX with a must neck turn chamber .
Barrel is a $15 remington 243 take off cut and rechambered.
If it was a 7.63x39 with my my old tighter spec reamer cut chamber accuracy would be the same at 100 yards.

The 6BRX is about 700 fps faster and has almost triple the BC so thus Will reach out and touch somthing a lot lot better.
Basically a prototype to get mags and feeding correct.
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Old 11-26-2017, 12:33 PM   #77
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This is 100yds with my C39 classic (I know, I know already!) with the TWS dogleg and a cheap UTG BugBuster 3x9, Wolf HPs. This is the very best I could do from a bench. The windage held pretty good once I got it clicked over to the right a little. There is a group of 4-5 that are pretty tight. My WASR holds about the same. The AK 762x39 is what it is and we all have bolts with big glass that can stay in the orange all day long at 100yds. Not sure what the OP means by "I fire a 3 round group bullet holes are touching. Fire another 3, same deal but on a diffrent part of the plate. They dont want to stay together".

Try the same gun 3 or 4 shoots at a time with some good ammo .
Not bad really considering the ammo is hard pressed to do 2" in a bolt action.

I'd like to try some of the federal 7.62x39 ammo .
I have never shot it.
The winchester is disappointing.
I CANT Find THE PMC soft points any more they were pretty good.

As far as bolt guns how do you think they would do with a 1/8" of gritty pretravel on a 6 pound or worse trigger with a side mount screwed to the side of the stock and ammo that wasent 1" capable in any rifle???
Likely about the same I'd guess.
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Old 11-26-2017, 12:39 PM   #78
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Old 11-26-2017, 01:41 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
Try the same gun 3 or 4 shoots at a time with some good ammo .
Not bad really considering the ammo is hard pressed to do 2" in a bolt action.

I'd like to try some of the federal 7.62x39 ammo .
I have never shot it.
The winchester is disappointing.
I CANT Find THE PMC soft points any more they were pretty good.

As far as bolt guns how do you think they would do with a 1/8" of gritty pretravel on a 6 pound or worse trigger with a side mount screwed to the side of the stock and ammo that wasent 1" capable in any rifle???
Likely about the same I'd guess.
Agreed, probably about the same. The only other ammo I've shot through this is the Hornady SST and found it to be a waste of money. I bought a case of GT FMJ BT from SGAmmo that I haven't tried yet, reviews are pretty good so I'll see.
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Old 11-26-2017, 01:59 PM   #80
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The title should be "examples of certain AK's accuracy", or "potential accuracy of AK style weapons, if all the stars are aligned"

There are so many variables outside of the actual unit called the "rifle" that this topic is just a look-at-me contest.

All these bullet holes pictured, how do we know they are not from 20 feet? Prove it.

Ultimately, it does not matter, because what if you can or can't do the same with YOUR rifle? Do you blame the rifle, or is it the nut behind the gun or any part you have bolted, on or inserted?

Rob ski has youtubes showing hitting plates at 300y with steel case ammo. You need his skill, but you have to start with his same equipment too.
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Old 11-26-2017, 03:19 PM   #81
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I still don't understand the obsession with trying to shoot tiny groups with ak rifles. Its nonsense. I guess it can be done according to some on here by spending countless hours handloading the most expensive components that can't readily be found, building special scope mounts to mount high power scopes that the rifle was never meant to use, and holding your tongue juuuust right. Seems like a waste of time when you could buy an off the shelf bolt rifle costing half as much as a wasr. Purchase ammo of the shelf at academy and do much better with not much effort. An ak with steel case ammo is more than capable of hitting 2/3 size silhouettes repeatedly with iron sights. Past that it gets tougher for sure.

A smart car is a terrible family sedan and an ak is a horrible base for a precision build. Use the right tool for the job.

EDIT: The distance of the 2/3 silhouettes I was talking about is 300 yards.

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Old 11-26-2017, 04:20 PM   #82
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I still don't understand the obsession with trying to shoot tiny groups with ak rifles. Its nonsense. I guess it can be done according to some on here by spending countless hours handloading the most expensive components that can't readily be found, building special scope mounts to mount high power scopes that the rifle was never meant to use, and holding your tongue juuuust right. Seems like a waste of time when you could buy an off the shelf bolt rifle costing half as much as a wasr. Purchase ammo of the shelf at academy and do much better with not much effort. An ak with steel case ammo is more than capable of hitting 2/3 size silhouettes repeatedly with iron sights. Past that it gets tougher for sure.

A smart car is a terrible family sedan and an ak is a horrible base for a precision build. Use the right tool for the job.
All of this
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Old 11-26-2017, 05:24 PM   #83
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[QUOTE=Coldfilter;4336569]I can put a mag of wolf out of my saiga on a pie plate at 200 yards. Is that acceptable accuracy?
I dont have any freinds with 7.62 akm rifles to compare.[/QUOTE

Whatever it is. (IMO) It's good enough to hunt pigs, coyotes or deer with at that range.

If it's an "acceptable group size" for you then it's good enough. But you didn't say what the purpose is for....for fun, plinking, hunting, personal defense, etc.

If it's not, try some Lapua Ammunition to tighten it up and shoot at some smaller targets, like shotgun clays. ('aim small, miss small")...and shoot often. Just remember these are not high quality match or competition built rifles so don't hang your hat or expect groups to be .25 or less @200 if that's your thought.

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Old 11-26-2017, 05:31 PM   #84
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Agreed, probably about the same. The only other ammo I've shot through this is the Hornady SST and found it to be a waste of money. I bought a case of GT FMJ BT from SGAmmo that I haven't tried yet, reviews are pretty good so I'll see.
None of the hornady steel cased stuff has shown me any thing.
I'm surprised they put there name on it.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:11 PM   #85
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I still don't understand the obsession with trying to shoot tiny groups with ak rifles. Its nonsense. I guess it can be done according to some on here by spending countless hours handloading the most expensive components that can't readily be found, building special scope mounts to mount high power scopes that the rifle was never meant to use, and holding your tongue juuuust right. Seems like a waste of time when you could buy an off the shelf bolt rifle costing half as much as a wasr. Purchase ammo of the shelf at academy and do much better with not much effort. An ak with steel case ammo is more than capable of hitting 2/3 size silhouettes repeatedly with iron sights. Past that it gets tougher for sure.

A smart car is a terrible family sedan and an ak is a horrible base for a precision build. Use the right tool for the job.
Its no more stupid than doing it with a AR.
you might notice the multi-billion industry around making a battle rifle platform into somthing it's not.

It's not any more stupid than spending $2000 setting a AK up for some pipe dream urban assult room entering bs scenerio that you will never ever be involved in and then sit and stare at how cool your rifle looks and try to impress how much a bad ass you are because you have it.

While most guys don't buy a AK for target shooting realize 99% of guys will try to hit somthing with it at some point.
Shooting steel gongs, milk jugs or some other 14" wide target is just as non productive as me trying to shoot some quarter sized dot. It's all recreational shooting.
At least I'm trying to take the Plat form to its limits.
I hunt with many of my rifles and pistols. So before I waste time and money doing that I make sure I can hit what I aim at.
I wasent able to take deer at 200 yards with a pistol by not doing the home work and testing.
You know a actual use were things actualy die not fantasy BS that maybe .05% of AK'S will ever be used for in the US.

I have about 15 AK s That are absolutely worth less for any purpose other than blasting shit. I never shoot them and I'll never point them at a person ,zombie, ninja of terrorist. I do how ever shoot my accurate stuff a lot more it gives me more satisfaction building something percussion than some POS a $175 slug gun out shoots it and brag about the rivets or the site leaf markings o t some actual nonsense .

Not sure how spending time making a optic mount that works is none sense vs spending over the cost of my first AK for some side mount that dosent hold zero with a scope. Now that's just fucking stupid. Funny places are now copying it .

UNDERSTAND I have built custom stuff on AK parts that out shoots most AR,s and a lot of bolt actions and when I did it it was for under $300. Yeap a sub 1/2" SA varmint rifle that out shoots 90% of the ARS that cost $1500 at the time boy that was dumb.

You might want to take notice of what the Russians have been doing competitively in IPSC with there tuned or custom AKs. There coming on strong in world competition.
But hey a AK is designed for only combat. Despite you will never see combat or have full auto. What's nonsense is pertinding you will. If it happens great in the mean time you have a semi auto rifle
LEARN TO SHOOT IT WHILE YOU WAIT FOR ZOMBIES.

What is nonsense is paying a grand for something worth $350 that won't hold a group thrn slapping stupid taticool battld shit on it then jerk off because it's got perfect rivets , bayo mpunt or you can hit a 14" wide target at 5O yards with your chest rig on.

Yea I hand load . SO Fucking what? Hard to find componets ? Not really. At least I pick my trash up more than 90% of Ak owners do and then wonder why there notwelcome back.

Fact is many AK'S will shoot around 1.5" with decent ammo .
If you can't do then you likely suck as a shooter so instead if getting better you find a bigger target and then blame the gun and use some minute of man BS excuse for your inability.
Any ass hole can jerky a trigger . It takes skill to actualy learn to shoot.

Great you can hit 2/3 size silhouettes. And that makes sense how?
We're you abused by a silhouette as child?? Do they taste good?
Might as well just shoot into the dirt if there is no challange to it.

Last edited by 1biggun; 11-26-2017 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 11-26-2017, 06:23 PM   #86
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"All these bullet holes pictured, how do we know they are not from 20 feet? Prove it."


Yea it's pretty hard to prove any thing on the net .
I'm working on getting some video with the gun and the target at the same time or a known trusted person from here to document what my next build does . ( if it works out as planned)

I have groups posted on Gunco Years back and guts who have verified them but anything can be faked these day's.
.

I'd like a video set up that shows the gun going off and the bullet hitting at the same time.
Stuff is avaliable. I think Rob Ski has a set up like that?
Then who's to say it's not edited.

If my next build works out I'd like to take and shoot it in some competition were it's officially scored.
Not many events a AK is allowed against simular rifles. So I'd be against bolt action likely . But still I could get a official score.
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Old 11-26-2017, 07:28 PM   #87
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Old 11-26-2017, 07:36 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
"All these bullet holes pictured, how do we know they are not from 20 feet? Prove it."


Yea it's pretty hard to prove any thing on the net .
I'm working on getting some video with the gun and the target at the same time or a known trusted person from here to document what my next build does . ( if it works out as planned)

I have groups posted on Gunco Years back and guts who have verified them but anything can be faked these day's.
.

I'd like a video set up that shows the gun going off and the bullet hitting at the same time.
Stuff is avaliable. I think Rob Ski has a set up like that?
Then who's to say it's not edited.

If my next build works out I'd like to take and shoot it in some competition were it's officially scored.
Not many events a AK is allowed against simular rifles. So I'd be against bolt action likely . But still I could get a official score.
Any video can be edited and faked, especially a paired split screen, which is often a software edited effect.

Point is, unless you are there, there is ZERO assurance.

Kind of like one of my nitride PA-10 non-freefloat barrels that shoots consistent .75 moa with surplus. I've got video and pictures. Irrelevant. Unless you are behind the rifle you'd always have some doubt. Technically we call surplus US and Foreign NATO ammo to be 2MOA ammo. Perhaps its always been a shooter limitation and since we've never scientifically tested it, NATO Surplus may in fact be better ammo. But who knows. The only really accurate way to ensure testing and results is LAB WORK and all that entails. As far as I know only the various private and .mil arsenals have the needed setups and equipment but if anyone has a spare tens of millions and is desperate to spend it I am certain we can create a lab from the ground up and hire people with degrees and get all the gear properly certified for precision before each test and all the needed bits and bobs. We could then definitive test all ammo sent. Then again these arsenals tend to test a much larger sample than we do and so their numbers represent a broader categorization, the kind needed by nations to ensure their armed forces are properly equiped.
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Old 11-26-2017, 09:11 PM   #89
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Coldfilter: Do you enjoy making those hits? If so, then Yes, whether an AK, PSL, Dragunov or whatever. A metal "Ping" is a good sound.

I've never owned a scope, and making those hits you describe with these iron sights would be rewarding. It's pretty neat at times to hit 300 yard gongs with the M59 (not/66...) SKS, only Wolf or Tula ammo.
My shooting with the Enfield #4/Mk. 1s (not the 2-groove, but better 4 or 5-groove rifling: English production LEs) is not so consistent.

To be quite frank, life or even good health is so short that--for many of us-- what is mostly enjoyable shooting is something we will be glad about when health goes away, or the grim reaper puts an end to it.
For me it's like being concerned about 922r............. Also, I'm retired and don't need to impress the Many wannabe SEALs in the US (FBI: >300 SEAL pretenders for every Living...), only Have Some Fun, while knowing that the guns are very reliable.

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Old 11-26-2017, 09:40 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
Its no more stupid than doing it with a AR.
you might notice the multi-billion industry around making a battle rifle platform into somthing it's not.

It's not any more stupid than spending $2000 setting a AK up for some pipe dream urban assult room entering bs scenerio that you will never ever be involved in and then sit and stare at how cool your rifle looks and try to impress how much a bad ass you are because you have it.

While most guys don't buy a AK for target shooting realize 99% of guys will try to hit somthing with it at some point.
Shooting steel gongs, milk jugs or some other 14" wide target is just as non productive as me trying to shoot some quarter sized dot. It's all recreational shooting.
At least I'm trying to take the Plat form to its limits.
I hunt with many of my rifles and pistols. So before I waste time and money doing that I make sure I can hit what I aim at.
I wasent able to take deer at 200 yards with a pistol by not doing the home work and testing.
You know a actual use were things actualy die not fantasy BS that maybe .05% of AK'S will ever be used for in the US.

I have about 15 AK s That are absolutely worth less for any purpose other than blasting shit. I never shoot them and I'll never point them at a person ,zombie, ninja of terrorist. I do how ever shoot my accurate stuff a lot more it gives me more satisfaction building something percussion than some POS a $175 slug gun out shoots it and brag about the rivets or the site leaf markings o t some actual nonsense .

Not sure how spending time making a optic mount that works is none sense vs spending over the cost of my first AK for some side mount that dosent hold zero with a scope. Now that's just fucking stupid. Funny places are now copying it .

UNDERSTAND I have built custom stuff on AK parts that out shoots most AR,s and a lot of bolt actions and when I did it it was for under $300. Yeap a sub 1/2" SA varmint rifle that out shoots 90% of the ARS that cost $1500 at the time boy that was dumb.

You might want to take notice of what the Russians have been doing competitively in IPSC with there tuned or custom AKs. There coming on strong in world competition.
But hey a AK is designed for only combat. Despite you will never see combat or have full auto. What's nonsense is pertinding you will. If it happens great in the mean time you have a semi auto rifle
LEARN TO SHOOT IT WHILE YOU WAIT FOR ZOMBIES.

What is nonsense is paying a grand for something worth $350 that won't hold a group thrn slapping stupid taticool battld shit on it then jerk off because it's got perfect rivets , bayo mpunt or you can hit a 14" wide target at 5O yards with your chest rig on.

Yea I hand load . SO Fucking what? Hard to find componets ? Not really. At least I pick my trash up more than 90% of Ak owners do and then wonder why there notwelcome back.

Fact is many AK'S will shoot around 1.5" with decent ammo .
If you can't do then you likely suck as a shooter so instead if getting better you find a bigger target and then blame the gun and use some minute of man BS excuse for your inability.
Any ass hole can jerky a trigger . It takes skill to actualy learn to shoot.

Great you can hit 2/3 size silhouettes. And that makes sense how?
We're you abused by a silhouette as child?? Do they taste good?
Might as well just shoot into the dirt if there is no challange to it.
I never said you were stupid. A man can do what he wants as long as he isn't infringing on someone else. I just said that I don't get your application of the ak rifle basically. The 2/3 silhouettes I was referring to are at 300 yards. With irons it isn't too difficult to make the shot with any ak and with any ammunition. Past that it is tougher. My whole point is that there are certain tools for certain jobs. Yes most people in the US will not be going to war with their ak rifles. Yes most are bought to plink with at the range or wherever you shoot. I like shooting milk jugs with my Ak from up close to a few hundred yards just as I like to shoot milk jugs at 600 yards and beyond with my target rifle. Every firearm is not built for extreme accuracy just as every car isn't built to set records on the speedway. Keep doing what you are doing if it makes you happy. Just don't get so butt hurt when someone else looks at you and shakes their head.

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Old 11-26-2017, 10:14 PM   #91
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Coldfilter: Do you enjoy making those hits? If so, then Yes, whether an AK, PSL, Dragunov or whatever. A metal "Ping" is a good sound, is it not?

I've never owned a scope, and making those hits you describe with these iron sights would be rewarding. It's pretty neat at times to hit 300 yard gongs with the M59 (not/66...) SKS, only Wolf or Tula ammo.
My shooting with the Enfield #4/Mk. 1s (not the 2-groove, but 4 or 5-groove rifling: English production) is not so consistent.

To be quite frank, life or even good health is so short that--for many of us-- what is mostly enjoyable shooting is something we won't regret when health goes away, or the grim reaper puts an end to it.
For me it's like being concerned about 922r.....................
Well said Laufer. If the shooter can hit what he or she is aiming at then it is acceptable accuracy. I was just goofing with the OP in post #36 and sharing similar experiences with another member in post #71.

There are clearly definable differences between what a shooter is looking for from the actions and tools involved depending on the situation. As this relates to accuracy, recreational shooters just want to make contact with the target whereas people in a gunfight are happy with neutralizing threats. Those two examples are not so different except that the fighters have much more at stake than the 'just for fun' people at the range or in their back yard. Now when you bring competition shooters into the mix the criteria changes significantly. Precise accuracy holds the most weight with them, but speed and dependability can also be highly desirable. One important aspect to remember, some compete with themselves... just wanting to shoot better than they did the last time out. For example, I shoot some USPSA matches. I am no threat for winning the events, but each event I hope to improve on my last performance.

As for why would one want the most accuracy they can get out of a weapon not necessarily designed to be bench rest competition accurate, well some just want to maximize the performance of the tools at hand. Cars are a good parallel here. Some racers don't have the best possible platform to go fast with, but they still enjoy optimizing the performance out of what they have. Along those lines, the term 'sleeper' is appealing to me, as in going fast with something that others don't expect to perform as good as it does.

Considering the credibility of any given accuracy a shooter and his tools is tough to confirm strictly online. I can't speak for others here, but personally if I were going to fudge my results I would tout something more impressive than 5ish MOA accuracy. I am not winning any awards when I share my experiences here, just being honest as to what my limited skills and tools have previously accomplished
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Old 11-26-2017, 10:40 PM   #92
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Well said Laufer. If the shooter can hit what he or she is aiming at then it is acceptable accuracy. I was just goofing with the OP in post #36 and sharing similar experiences with another member in post #71.

There are clearly definable differences between what a shooter is looking for from the actions and tools involved depending on the situation. As this relates to accuracy, recreational shooters just want to make contact with the target whereas people in a gunfight are happy with neutralizing threats. Those two examples are not so different except that the fighters have much more at stake than the 'just for fun' people at the range or in their back yard. Now when you bring competition shooters into the mix the criteria changes significantly. Precise accuracy holds the most weight with them, but speed and dependability can also be highly desirable. One important aspect to remember, some compete with themselves... just wanting to shoot better than they did the last time out. For example, I shoot some USPSA matches. I am no threat for winning the events, but each event I hope to improve on my last performance.

As for why would one want the most accuracy they can get out of a weapon not necessarily designed to be bench rest competition accurate, well some just want to maximize the performance of the tools at hand. Cars are a good parallel here. Some racers don't have the best possible platform to go fast with, but they still enjoy optimizing the performance out of what they have. Along those lines, the term 'sleeper' is appealing to me, as in going fast with something that others don't expect to perform as good as it does.

Considering the credibility of any given accuracy a shooter and his tools is tough to confirm strictly online. I can't speak for others here, but personally if I were going to fudge my results I would tout something more impressive than 5ish MOA accuracy. I am not winning any awards when I share my experiences here, just being honest as to what my limited skills and tools have previously accomplished
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Old 11-27-2017, 08:31 AM   #93
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1st I appreciate the duscussion. No problem.

I stated in one of the above posts MOST AK'S can do 1.5" and it's not a shock to see 1". With good ammo ,trigger and my cantalever mounts.

How many AK'S have you seen or have personaly shot with Good ammo a really good trigger and a optic mount that is not influenced by reciver flex and shoot off good bags on a good bench in good conditions ??? I'm going to say zero.
I was the only guy doing a cantalever mount for years now there is one on the market that may be as good.

I said my AMD 65 will hit 1" with the old PMC soft points and it will.
That's with a large optic and about a 3 pound trigger.
That's shoot off of bags on a good bench.
I can repeat those groups or slightly better with hand loads.

I have a Romy kit build with a factory barrel that has a cantalever mount that has done some 1" 5 shot 100 yard groups .
I have a Saiga fore end on it not the factory hand guards and retainers. It has a safe to carry tapco trigger that is pretty predictable. For load work up I use a fixed 24x optic . That's something else I suspect you have never seen on a AK .
but I can can get pretty consistant groups out of it with a 110 Vmax

Getting 5 shots in a tight group is no easy feat.
Hammer forged barrels that are as light as the AKM start to walk at about 4 shots.

The AMD pistol I have is the most accurate FACTORY barrel military AK variant I have personaly shot. And it has dipped under 1"
A few times but I'd certainly call it 1" capable.
Agreed.
In my experience good shooting AK's can sit around 1.5" at 100yds. I've personally shot VEPR's and even a C39V2 and consistently gotten that.
Also I want to clarify that a 1 MOA rifle and a rifle that is 1 MOA capable are not the same thing. I shot a few 1" 100yrd groups with that C39V2 but I wouldn't call it a 1 MOA rifle.

The effectiveness of the mounting system is a very good point. That is one of the downfalls of the AK's natural accuracy, if you will; the mounting system. If a better mounting system, better trigger, etc.. were standard options for the AK, I probably would consider the AK a naturally more accurate platform. But the lack of these options is part of what makes the AK platform less capable in my mind.

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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
With custom barrels and other mods 1" and better is easy .
I have built a bunch of them in various caliburs.

I have a 6MM BRX with a sporter weight barrel ,my mount and trigger work that is safe to carry and hunt with on
Basic home bent non hardened Tapco that's a screw build to boot I'd take a sub 1" moa bet with on about any day the winds down.
No special bolt truing or carrier fitting. Even a hammer forged barrel


With a crappy mount that is reciver affected a stock trigger on a factory type rifle 1" is tough with any factory ammo even lapua.
It's just to hard to shoot and the optic won't hold zero well enough.

I'm doing a 6.5 grendel next. Bought a barrel off the classifieds here. First one I haven't made in years
I spent a hour in the middle of the night trying to get a blemished regulate side mount to no avail because there site sucked or had issues. Waste of time
I wanted to do back to back testing of a better side mount and one that's not reciver affected in a apples to apples test same gun ammo trigger and optic. I'm rebarreling a existing rifle that happens to have a side rail to allow this test.
I feel my mounts are a big part of my success getting AK based rifles to perform .
I have never shoot a 1" group with a side rail or beryl type mount with any barrel or ammo .
I'll be very interested in seeing your results on this 6.5 build. Sounds exciting.
I trust that you'll post them here on the files when ready.

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Originally Posted by 1biggun View Post
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/attach...6&d=1440883319
While not stock barrel wise.
This is a consistant 3/4" moa rifle.
It's not done in that pic .
But that is my latest mount . Nothing touches the reciver.
That's a 6MM BRX with a must neck turn chamber .
Barrel is a $15 remington 243 take off cut and rechambered.
If it was a 7.63x39 with my my old tighter spec reamer cut chamber accuracy would be the same at 100 yards.

The 6BRX is about 700 fps faster and has almost triple the BC so thus Will reach out and touch somthing a lot lot better.
Basically a prototype to get mags and feeding correct.
Now I would believe that this is a sub MOA AK. But it's also very customized.
It's really factory AK's and standard kit builds that I've been talking about this whole time. I realized that I maybe should have made that more clear.
Cool looking build BTW.
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Old 11-27-2017, 08:37 AM   #94
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Agreed, probably about the same. The only other ammo I've shot through this is the Hornady SST and found it to be a waste of money. I bought a case of GT FMJ BT from SGAmmo that I haven't tried yet, reviews are pretty good so I'll see.
I've been underwhelmed with the this ammo's accuracy as well. I typically expect more from Hornady. The only saving grace of this round is the SST bullet in it. It's a good hunting bullet and it feeds very reliably as compared to certain soft points that I've seen being finicky in certain AK's.

GT, seems to be decent for what it is though. No complains there.


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Great groups Dozer!
Love that one with the ragged hole.
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Old 11-27-2017, 09:00 PM   #95
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The topic of this thread being "7.62x39 accuracy" is self explanatory and goes beyond the platform itself. While it may well be capable of exceptional accuracy in a 24 lb. Bench Gun, my uses of it are more mundane- and practical.

My wife used the little CZ-527 to harvest a fat doe and the WASR took a 7 point buck a week later. She killed hers with Golden Bear soft point at a no-shit 220 yards, centering the shoulder and putting it on the ground in 20 yards. The bullet exited and left a great blood trail. It was obvious during the field dressing it had wrecked the lungs and arteries above the heart. From a good rifle, even steel-case soft point 7.62x39 ammo possesses all the accuracy and performance you need.
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Old 11-28-2017, 02:31 PM   #96
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Default Chamber neck and ammo meaurements

Here are chamber neck measurements relative to biggun comments about neck clearance. From my limited sampling, brass case S&B and Fiocchi ammo have tighter clearance of about .006" compared to Tulammo and Barnaul steel case.

-- Zastava OPAP, 4 barrels: 0.341" chamber neck
-- Zastava NPAP, 0.341
-- Zastava SKS M59/66, 2 barrels: 0.341, 0.342"
-- AK-builder M72, 0.339; this appears to have been reamed to SAAMI spec which tapers down from 0.3445 to 0.3383 in the breech-->muzzle direction.


Loaded brass case ammo neck diameter (S&B, Fiocchi) 123 gn FMJ: 0.334-0.335"

Steel case
Tulammo 123gn FMJ: 0.334-0.337
Tulammo 154 gn SP: 0.331-0.333
Barnaul 123 gn FMJ : 0.334

The x39 cases are typically .011 to .012" neck thickness which is a couple of thousandths thinner than full size brass like .308 and 30-06.

Also bullet runout is a big factor in making flyers. I measured 10 rounds each, which is not enough to get statistics but starts to give an idea of uniformity and what is bad:

Tulammo 123 gn: average 0.0053", spread .0025-->.0095"
Tulammo 154 gn: average 0.0024", spread 0.0005-->0.004"
S&B 123 gn: average 0.0030", spread 0.001-->0.0065"

The Tulammo SP is surprisingly uniform in my small sample, and what is as important the max runout is under 5 thousandths which is decent for mass produced stuff. The short neck and bullet shank make it more difficult to hold low runout as compared to longer cartridges with heavier bullets like .308 and 30-06.

Bottom line, it is realistic to get 4 to 5 thousandths neck clearance in production barrels with brass case ammo. With handloading one can get bullet runout down to a couple of thousandths, well below factory. I doubt that you want to do mag dumps with ammo that has that much time spent on making it but that is an individual thing.

I'm interested if others have chamber measurements of chrome lined barrels to see how the variation is.
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Old 11-28-2017, 10:58 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Pavle2 View Post
Here are chamber neck measurements relative to biggun comments about neck clearance. From my limited sampling, brass case S&B and Fiocchi ammo have tighter clearance of about .006" compared to Tulammo and Barnaul steel case.

-- Zastava OPAP, 4 barrels: 0.341" chamber neck
-- Zastava NPAP, 0.341
-- Zastava SKS M59/66, 2 barrels: 0.341, 0.342"
-- AK-builder M72, 0.339; this appears to have been reamed to SAAMI spec which tapers down from 0.3445 to 0.3383 in the breech-->muzzle direction.


Loaded brass case ammo neck diameter (S&B, Fiocchi) 123 gn FMJ: 0.334-0.335"

Steel case
Tulammo 123gn FMJ: 0.334-0.337
Tulammo 154 gn SP: 0.331-0.333
Barnaul 123 gn FMJ : 0.334

The x39 cases are typically .011 to .012" neck thickness which is a couple of thousandths thinner than full size brass like .308 and 30-06.

Also bullet runout is a big factor in making flyers. I measured 10 rounds each, which is not enough to get statistics but starts to give an idea of uniformity and what is bad:

Tulammo 123 gn: average 0.0053", spread .0025-->.0095"
Tulammo 154 gn: average 0.0024", spread 0.0005-->0.004"
S&B 123 gn: average 0.0030", spread 0.001-->0.0065"

The Tulammo SP is surprisingly uniform in my small sample, and what is as important the max runout is under 5 thousandths which is decent for mass produced stuff. The short neck and bullet shank make it more difficult to hold low runout as compared to longer cartridges with heavier bullets like .308 and 30-06.

Bottom line, it is realistic to get 4 to 5 thousandths neck clearance in production barrels with brass case ammo. With handloading one can get bullet runout down to a couple of thousandths, well below factory. I doubt that you want to do mag dumps with ammo that has that much time spent on making it but that is an individual thing.

I'm interested if others have chamber measurements of chrome lined barrels to see how the variation is.
You have done some work here .

Looks like you can get .010" clearance with the 154 grain steel and your barrels. about like I said

I recall a new Romy barrel at .012" for wolf ammo I bothered to measure.
I haven't messed with Tula much.

I should check the AMD throat.

Interesting about the AK builder chamber tapering down.
That was just in the neck ares

Another equally important chamber area is the bullet to chamber side clearance. I have never measured a stock barrel.

If you can get down to .004" clearance with brass ammo that pretty good and a lot of pretty accurate factory bolt actions are 4 or 6 thousands.

I messed a bit with expanding the neck after full length sizing to be about .003" in the camber then sizing the front 2/3 for the bullet.
Gains were had but it was a PITA and was hard to get a consistant over size due to case spring back.
Some bushing dies with a stepped bushing might be doable.
Not really worth the work on a AK with a stock barrel .
Neck and bullet run out numbers you showed are interesting.
.009" is pretty bad.

Factory wolf ammo I tore down had a full grain powder variance in one box and a half grain differance in a good portion of the ones that were better.
The stuff is that bad.
So with about .010 neck clearance ..009 " run out , in consistant powder charge and often a looser head space it's easy to see why the average 7.62x39 gets a poor reputation.


I had a custom reamer ( never loan a reamer to a stranger) that was about .004" .308" bullets and was near must turn with .311 bullets.
That reprofiled and chambered 30 BR barrel really shot.
I'd like to have seen it on a bolt action in 7.62x39.
I wish I could have kept it.

I don't mess with 7.62x39 much any more it's to slow for varmint and long range target and a bit light for my hunting wants.

I do have a full bull 1" OD barrel threaded and chambered with a standard Clymer reamer ready for my threaded removable barrel build. It's just a GM gunsmith blank spun true but it will show what the barrels can or can't do with a pretty normal chamber.
I don't know the neck size on it I never checked.

With rounds like the 6mm BRX I did and 223 and other stuff I can use the reamers for bolt actions and ARS so I'm more willing to invest time in reamers and making ammo.
I'm shooting for sub 1/2" with the target 6mm BRX barrel I have on the next build. I'd like to give the better AR'S a run for there money.
Maybe shoot it in a event . I have a guy who competes that won a bunch of local stuff who may be willing do some trigger time and loan me some serious optics if I can prove it's worth entering in a event.

I'd at least be able to prove accuracy with a scored target.
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Old 11-29-2017, 10:46 PM   #98
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Default Bullet clearance?

biggun, do you mean the clearance in the throat where the rifling is reamed away?

I agree that the throat clearance is another critical dimension. The CIP spec says that the throat is 8.00 mm long and tapers from 8.60 mm at the case neck down to 7.62 mm (bore diameter) where the rifling is full depth. There is no step at the transition from case neck to the throat.

This is the same as I measured on a Cerrosafe chamber cast of a Zastava OPAP barrel -- about 8 mm of throat length and smooth taper down to the bore. The half-angle of the throat taper is about 3.5 degrees. About 4 years ago I posted a picture of the cast, should still be floating somewhere on the Build it Yourself forum.

SAAMI spec has a distinct step of 0.6mm where the case neck area of the chamber ends and the throat begins. Throat is longer, at 10 mm, but the half angle is only 1 degree. The AK Builder m72 barrels look like this but I have not done a chamber cast to get accurate numbers. On the QC side, the AKB barrel throat is not quite centered on the bore--one of the lands is shorter cut than the others, so the reamer got crooked. Doesn't look too bad, will have to see how it shoots when I finish the build.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:38 AM   #99
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All my reamers have a defined step between the neck and throat.

I should section some if the barrel stubs I have and look at them closer.

Perhaps the lack of a defined step between throat and neck is to try to reduce throat erosion or make cleaning easier.
I recall a step on a few of the factory barrel I have looked at before.
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:43 AM   #100
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http://www.akfiles.com/forums/attach...6&d=1465774392

Here is a factory chamber .
I stole the picture off Gunco years ago with permission
I forget what builder originaly posted it.

Yeap no step.
Also no way to get bullet close to the rifeling
by seating the bullet out.
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Old 12-01-2017, 12:38 PM   #101
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Something that gets over looked in a accuracy type project is how the extractor puts side pressure on the case.
In a loose chamber the means the case won't be centered in it fif the bolt is true to the bore .
It's possable the play we have is a good thing.

My next build will have nearly zero play at lock up.
I have ways to remove the carrier to reciver play and bolt to carrier play.

It will be possable to test differances between a no play trued bolt and a normal Loose / floating one by just a carrier swap .
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Old 12-01-2017, 01:21 PM   #102
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I never said you were stupid. A man can do what he wants as long as he isn't infringing on someone else. I just said that I don't get your application of the ak rifle basically. The 2/3 silhouettes I was referring to are at 300 yards. With irons it isn't too difficult to make the shot with any ak and with any ammunition. Past that it is tougher. My whole point is that there are certain tools for certain jobs. Yes most people in the US will not be going to war with their ak rifles. Yes most are bought to plink with at the range or wherever you shoot. I like shooting milk jugs with my Ak from up close to a few hundred yards just as I like to shoot milk jugs at 600 yards and beyond with my target rifle. Every firearm is not built for extreme accuracy just as every car isn't built to set records on the speedway. Keep doing what you are doing if it makes you happy. Just don't get so butt hurt when someone else looks at you and shakes their head.
Its all good.
My endeavors into AK accuracy are based mainly on builds .
I'm well aware what most want a normal AK for.
I have a bunch of normal AKs.

To me it was more about what could I do with a $50 pile of parts when a accurate factory AR rifle was about $1500 in 2002.
I got into AK'S because I wanted a high power hunting pistol cheap. For the project to be viable it had offer accuracy .
I'm in a pistol /shot gun only zone.
When I realized I could get to 1" with ammo trigger and optics despite at the time every single internet expert and gun rag writer said AK's had poor accuracy it was about proving a point that until you actually tried it you don't know. Had I listened the guys who said the AK is a 4" gun I'd never had built one.

The Varmint / target rifle stuff came about when my buddies who all shoot AR'S and bolt actions invited me to go to South Dakota vof a Prairie Dog shoot. The laughingly challenged me yo brink a AK.
SO "SURPRISE " when I pulled out my first Franken build 223 with a 27" barrel and 24x optics.

To me back then it's just a bunch of parts to play with .

A car anolgy would be having a Vega body and corvette engine and a bunch of junk in the garage and thinking Hmmmmm what could I do with this junk.

A bike anolgy is a Harley Sportster is a good beginners or girls bike.
Yet Evil thought hey I can jump a dozen busses with it.
Or in my case I had one that won it's class at Daytona on the road course.
Remember a small block powered car with its block from a school bus almost won the indy 500.

I have a couple Factory looking AK,s that are very reliable . I'd stake my life on them if I had to that are also pretty accurate.
I guess I'd shake my head at some one who would dismiss the accuracy as not a benifit.

It's a lot if fun at range when you AK pistol will out shoot the guys next to you bolt action . Trust me it's pretty enjoyable to watch terr faces when you walk down to get targets.

Sadly AK kits ar red not cheap any more so it's not easy to justify a $1000 AK Franken build when the AR is $400.
Sort of reversed from 2002.

I don't consider a good optic mount on a AK a bad idea if your going to have a optic then have one that work is my thinking.
My set up can have a slot to serve as Irons.y original short railed RSB did It gives up nothing with the optic removed except ability to adjust elevation .

Something that most guys never touch any way and most sporting rifles don't ever use despite being used more long range than a battle rifle.

To me a adjustable rear site for elevation on a military rifle is for inexperienced shooters who can't calculate hold over.
I never understood the need for it on a AK .
Most guys can't tell 240 yards from 400 yards and if you don't know range what good is it?? The need for a full auto AK in 7.62x39 to have some 800 yard position makes little sense to me .
It's like having a 160 mph speedometer on that smart car.
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Old 12-01-2017, 02:31 PM   #103
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Its all good.
My endeavors into AK accuracy are based mainly on builds .
I'm well aware what most want a normal AK for.
I have a bunch of normal AKs.

To me it was more about what could I do with a $50 pile of parts when a accurate factory AR rifle was about $1500 in 2002.
I got into AK'S because I wanted a high power hunting pistol cheap. For the project to be viable it had offer accuracy .
I'm in a pistol /shot gun only zone.
When I realized I could get to 1" with ammo trigger and optics despite at the time every single internet expert and gun rag writer said AK's had poor accuracy it was about proving a point that until you actually tried it you don't know. Had I listened the guys who said the AK is a 4" gun I'd never had built one.

The Varmint / target rifle stuff came about when my buddies who all shoot AR'S and bolt actions invited me to go to South Dakota vof a Prairie Dog shoot. The laughingly challenged me yo brink a AK.
SO "SURPRISE " when I pulled out my first Franken build 223 with a 27" barrel and 24x optics.

To me back then it's just a bunch of parts to play with .

A car anolgy would be having a Vega body and corvette engine and a bunch of junk in the garage and thinking Hmmmmm what could I do with this junk.

A bike anolgy is a Harley Sportster is a good beginners or girls bike.
Yet Evil thought hey I can jump a dozen busses with it.
Or in my case I had one that won it's class at Daytona on the road course.
Remember a small block powered car with its block from a school bus almost won the indy 500.

I have a couple Factory looking AK,s that are very reliable . I'd stake my life on them if I had to that are also pretty accurate.
I guess I'd shake my head at some one who would dismiss the accuracy as not a benifit.

It's a lot if fun at range when you AK pistol will out shoot the guys next to you bolt action . Trust me it's pretty enjoyable to watch terr faces when you walk down to get targets.

Sadly AK kits ar red not cheap any more so it's not easy to justify a $1000 AK Franken build when the AR is $400.
Sort of reversed from 2002.

I don't consider a good optic mount on a AK a bad idea if your going to have a optic then have one that work is my thinking.
My set up can have a slot to serve as Irons.y original short railed RSB did It gives up nothing with the optic removed except ability to adjust elevation .

Something that most guys never touch any way and most sporting rifles don't ever use despite being used more long range than a battle rifle.

To me a adjustable rear site for elevation on a military rifle is for inexperienced shooters who can't calculate hold over.
I never understood the need for it on a AK .
Most guys can't tell 240 yards from 400 yards and if you don't know range what good is it?? The need for a full auto AK in 7.62x39 to have some 800 yard position makes little sense to me .
It's like having a 160 mph speedometer on that smart car.
I understand you like to fiddle with stuff and see what happens. I know a few guys that do similar just not with guns. You have done some different things with the rifle for sure.

I don't use the slide on my ak rifles either. I like a 200 yard zero myself. The benefit of the sliding rear sight would be for further ranges with the rifle. With the factory irons shooting out to five hundred yards you couldn't even think about seeing your target trying to hold over. Now with a red dot or scope this problem would be remedied.
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Old 12-01-2017, 03:19 PM   #104
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The AK is or was nice because it was a avaliable source of parts the average guy can mess with and change and modify.

I think it's possable to use the bolt and carrier and a trunnion or milled reciver to build a rifle that can match about any other Semi auto or even beat them.
The ability to chamber a round tighter from is bolt lug design is one of the key features that makes me feel that way.
Virgin RPK trunions ( I have one) offer a very good way to have a lot of barrel held by a lot of area .

When you consider the most accurate firearm on the planet is the rail gun that many have the optic mounted directly to the barrel it to me becomes clear half the battle yo build any accurate rifle is a GREAT barrel ,optics that point we're the barrel does and perfect ammo. The rest is just parts the hold everything together.

When I first lay'd out my target build I looked at the side rail and Beryl type mount . Held the rifle with its untempered reciver and could twist the entire gun. I Said screw that shit.
If a H&R hand rifle and encore can shoot 1/2 with a barrel mounted optic then I was going to go that route.
It was just a matter of extending the rail back off a milled off RSB with a bunch of other mods.

My thinking was if the barrel droops down so does the scopd. It it climbs up so does the scope.
I just know it works for me.

I try to have the harmonics forward of the RSB with the custom RSB against the trunion pressed tight.

If I felt comfortable welding on the trunion is have welded the RSB so it and made it one part.

I think on a milled reciver a saddle mount might work well.
You can tell I'm not a side mount fan.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:23 PM   #105
hokahay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coldfilter View Post
I can put a mag of wolf out of my saiga on a pie plate at 200 yards. Is that acceptable accuracy?
I dont have any freinds with 7.62 akm rifles to compare.
Pie plate? I will bet I can hit a pie plate at 200 yards 100 times in a row easy!

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