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Old 12-02-2017, 04:24 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by GoNoGo View Post
Sam5, Sam7-SF, Sa-RPK's and Sam Classics are all assembled in USA,
"Assembled" is not "manufactured".

The expensive parts of the equation all happen overseas, where those costs are cheap.


TBH, if the parts are all made in factory 10, it really doesn't make a flip where they are "assembled", so long as it's done safely.
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Old 12-02-2017, 05:04 PM   #37
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Just read the Palmetto Thread
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Old 12-02-2017, 05:39 PM   #38
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"Assembled" is not "manufactured".
Assembled correctly is half the equation of a completed firearm. What's the rush to re-invent the parts wheel when quality imported parts are available? DDI tried and couldn't manufacture an all American AKM near the current AR15 price point.
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Old 12-02-2017, 07:16 PM   #39
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If there is sufficient demand there is no reason a US company cannot manufacture a solid functional AK variant.
However the AK demand is not close to that of the AR or some othrr spotting/ arms it seems.

As noted the barrels, receivets and accessorial pieces are already being produced.
Mainly need splid functional "action" parts of the bolt, carrier and front trunnion.

Last edited by AKBLUE; 12-02-2017 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 12-02-2017, 10:11 PM   #40
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Assembled correctly is half the equation of a completed firearm. What's the rush to re-invent the parts wheel when quality imported parts are available? DDI tried and couldn't manufacture an all American AKM near the current AR15 price point.
The profit on AR'S is low because of lots of competing company's making nearly the same thing by the thousands.

IF there was a market big enough that several large companies were involved then prices would drop.

DDI made how many rifles during a pre election panic?
Not enough guns to be able to drop prices and in a time period were they were selling possably at inflated prices due to the political climate.

Prices for a WASR and other offerings are rediculas.
Nothing makes these worth the current pricing. IMO
IF no new panics occur or more restrictions or sanctions happen prices will drop.
Everyone thinks they need a AK right now next year it will be something else.
Sort of reminds me of Harleys about 20 years ago.

Personaly I'd like to see a Nice milled 308 some were in the price range of a decent AR 10.
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Old 12-02-2017, 10:28 PM   #41
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So many reasons, but over time those reasons/hurdles can be overcome, but we're just not quite there yet. It is naive to say that because it's made here, it's automatically "the best", we have to be realistic, and that's how you get better, you recognize your weaknesses and work/improve on them, rather than denying them and pretending all is fine and nothing needs work, while reality passes by.


These are my opinions:

1st, we don't seem to have many manufacturers who are real serious about bringing the AK here, being dedicated to have a full fledged plant, and the machines and tooling required for it, it's a huge, long term commitment/investment...and perhaps risky, the industry questions, "is the Ak that popular here? Is the demand that stellar?"

2nd, we have a lot to learn, as simple as the AK may be, there are methods that have been perfected for decades in manufacturing the AK.

3rd, Here in the US, the AK is a consumer "recreational" gun (I'm not saying it's a "toy", I'm saying, our military does not use it, thus only consumers who want it for recreation use it, etc.), thus, unless the manufacturer was real serious about winning military contracts and making the product up to military standard, the bar will be... subpar.

Krebs Custom did an interview a while back, I love Marc Krebs, he takes great pride in his work, excellent craftsmanship, attention to detail, and they torture/stress test their products before producing them. He takes the AK and "refines" it to a whole new level, but that is one factor.. you need a good AK to work on to begin with.

Having said this, they do not "manufacture" AK's perse, they take a base AK and do a lot of work on it (polish the action, re-coat the whole gun with better finish, add their custom dust cover w/ sites that always holds zero, their custom foregrip, new trigger, etc.. etc.. a lot of good "custom" work). If I recall correctly, Marc stated they went with Russian AK's due to them having among the best Quality Control out of the box... hence they used Saiga, but when that got banned, they went with VEPR, now that got banned too... so I was wondering, "what are they going to do now?".

And... if I recall correctly, Marc Krebs was saying that they were going to use new Polish kits (probably WBP Radom), but he was scouting for deomstic receivers. Marc is a real polite and professional man, so I want to be fair and true to relaying what I recall from the interview, but I recall him saying that he had tested several domestically made receivers and put them through his standard stress tests, and they were not up to par, they cracked, they warped, they were incorrectly manufactured... I recall the interviewer asking him, "can you name them?" And Marc was real professional and polite about it and declined to as he didn't want to give a bad impression or name to those manufacturers. But I do recall him saying that he was going to work with them to do proper heat-treatment, so in turn they can get better and improve their product.. this got me excited.. because in essence, Marc is helping to improve our domestic suppliers... which apparently, and embarrassingly, and realistically lacked know-how and experience... I say that respectfully. I can't say it's all of them, but that's why there was a generalization of why our USA made AK's couldn't compete in quality and durability with Combloc countries who manufacture them for their own military use... though give us time, and if the market/demand is there, we'll learn, we'll get there.

I do think we perhaps have a bright future ahead though... Century is making improvements... they came out with the "V2" for Version 2... learning from mistakes, and making things better... perhaps they'll continue this trend as time goes on. We also have Kalashnikov USA... which... we'll have to see... again, we gotta give 'em time to get their stuff together, and perhaps the rest will follow and produce some real competition domestically, and perhaps the domestic manufacturers will be forced to be on their edge and continue in an upward trend in quality.

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Old 12-02-2017, 11:07 PM   #42
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And how many current 100% stamped recivers that have any kind Of good reputation are cracking??

It happens but it's seldom on the newer stuff.

As far as all the fitting and polishing and stuff ,that's what should be done on a $700 gun now.
You should not have to spend $2000 for a reworked rifle to get reasonable quality.
I'm not saying Krebs guns are not nice because they are but there not $2000 nice.
Better start looking at what $2000 can get you on other types of rifles.
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Old 12-03-2017, 12:02 AM   #43
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As for reliability, which aint a AR's strongest point:
Iím so tired of this myth. Yes the very early M16ís had reliability issues that stemmed from governments decision to omit chrome lined bores and chambers, while also using improper surplus powder. Those issues were resolved quickly, even before the A1 upgrade.

It is like the persistent myth amongst AR fans that AKís are incapable of any form of accuracy.
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Old 12-03-2017, 12:23 AM   #44
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Iím so tired of this myth. Yes the very early M16ís had reliability issues that stemmed from governments decision to omit chrome lined bores and chambers, while also using improper surplus powder. Those issues were resolved quickly, even before the A1 upgrade.

The design continues to kills its users to this day.

No, not going into it - again ( my thoughts [ along with links to confirmed failures ] have been posted here often enough )
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Old 12-03-2017, 12:46 AM   #45
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I’m so tired of this myth. Yes the very early M16’s had reliability issues that stemmed from governments decision to omit chrome lined bores and chambers, while also using improper surplus powder. Those issues were resolved quickly, even before the A1 upgrade.

It is like the persistent myth amongst AR fans that AK’s are incapable of any form of accuracy.
pretty much. I get a chuckle out of it as I've watched, maintained, and modified them for many years and they're a VERY reliable system (as long as run wet).

there's this bizarre "us vs. them" mentality in the AK and AR world that just won't die
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:05 AM   #46
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Just a few things to consider/think on....

The really inexpensive AR15s..the ones in the $400 to $550 range, many of the parts in those are actually imported from China or elsewhere in Asia. I am not talking about quality here, only that that allows for a lower price point.

Also, the AR15 is a more modern design compared with the AK or AKM. Therefore, it lends itself better to more modern manufacturing techniques. The AR requires advanced tooling with relatively tight tolerances, but not as much hands-on manual labor. Less fitting is required.
Compare that with the AK. It still uses some mfg techniques from WWII and can require a good bit of matching up parts by hand and hand fitting them together. But it can be made on less complex machinry.

The AK was designed to be produced in huge factories, on giant production lines. H. Ford would be amazed what the Russians (and later Chinese) were able to create as far as those. Sure it cost Comblock countires a lot of money to set them up, but since they were planning to produce the rifles by the millions, it was worth it as after the setup cost, the individual rifle cost was very low.
eIf an American company had a contract for 5,000,000 AKs, then yes it could invest the time and money into a proper production line and thus turn out Top quality AKs.
But just to sell a few thousand a year on the civilian market? The AK was not designed for that style or scale of production.
The AR is better suited for that, and that is why so many small companies can turn them out. Of course even there, most are just assembly houses; getting many of their base parts from other (bigger) factories.

Honestly trying to say an AK should or shouldn't be something because an AR is or isn't that thing is the true definition of comparing apples to oranges.
The 2 designs are radically different in concept, construction, and strengths and weaknesses.

For someone like me, a 100% USA made AK holds no interest. This has little to nothing to do with its features or longevity. It has everything to do with the fact that when I hold one, it has no heartbeat, no pulse. It has no soul; no connection with an old world Comblock factory and thus the days of the Cold War, and that global struggle whose history I find infinitely interesting.
I would feel the same about an AR15 copy made in China or even Russia. I like my SP1 so much because it does have history and represents the USA during a critical war. It came out of the same factory doors that thousands of M16A1s did that were sent to our boys in Vietnam. It has spirit, meaning.

These 100% USA AKs? They mean nothing, and sooner or later will be forgotten, dumped in the dustbin of history.

Just things to think on, nothing more, cheers.
And I am not talking about well done AK kit guns. Sure they were assembled here, but many of their parts are from Europe...sometimes even having been in actual military service. So they retain a connection to the past still.
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:09 AM   #47
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I just gotta wonder how many of the so called "experts" on this forum have spent years in a modern US manufacturing plant ? You know, setting up and running a CNC vertical or horizontal machining center or a CNC multiple turrent turning center ? Not to mention watching a CNC Strippt in action ? If you have, you know how fast precision parts can be started and finished in minutes not hours like some of comm bloc countries using 1940's technology were making AK's during the 1960's. The same goes for the manufacturing of mags using up to date injection molding machines ! I'll match my Journeyman's card against the usual Bull Shit here any day of the week.
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:48 AM   #48
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The real reason the US can't make an AK thats not crap is because they refuse to go by original military design. They blame cutting corners on inferior R&D. And every US company has to redesign things to make things propriety and totally useless at anytime they feel like going out of business. Then they blame Europe for manufacturing the same product cheaper and go out of their way to influence policymakers to limit access to the competition. When the truth is they really can't compete and need the free-market tailored to their liking, so it's not like competing at all. Otherwise they would be forced to put actual planning into their manufacturing with good materials. We are getting there piece meal slowly. When the truth is Arsonal is selling AK's for 1000 a piece and if we could be even close to the same configuration without copping out on finish, FCG, Actions and barrels then we could probably sell them for 1500. European aks are good but they still lack certain aspects that appeal to ak owners and it really only takes engineering the overlooked features into a domestic AK and with good quality parts then yes we would be able to have a $1000 domestic ak. But companies need to do their homework first for example not everyone wants a lft hand charge handle and so on and so forth. But another example is take the magpul pistol grip its a good grip but compared to FAB's the material feels cheap and not as durable, but I love the angle and ergonomics better, for use on a main rifle FAB wins it just do to stability.
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:08 AM   #49
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There's no reason we can't produce a $450 AK that rivals Ru or Bulg. I don't think the demand is there to get those kind of production numbers tho.
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:22 AM   #50
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At least there are places trying. I own many other countries ak's but recently picked up this psa, 400+ rounds so far this last month. 300 of them the first time shooting. Others have recently got one and it was a turd. PSA smarten up please, stop letting "qc" send shit out the door. I was surprised as mine is pretty much flawless. Only thing i did was put the izzy triangle on it. Had it smoking pretty good doing mag dumps. Worked on some targets the 2nd time out and was just as accurate as any other saiga or arsenal i own. I hope they will continue to polish and refine their production of these and start firing idiots letting lemons be shipped.
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:57 AM   #51
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And how many current 100% stamped recivers that have any kind Of good reputation are cracking??

It happens but it's seldom on the newer stuff.

As far as all the fitting and polishing and stuff ,that's what should be done on a $700 gun now.
You should not have to spend $2000 for a reworked rifle to get reasonable quality.
I'm not saying Krebs guns are not nice because they are but there not $2000 nice.
Better start looking at what $2000 can get you on other types of rifles.
Kreb's is like under 10 minutes from our lake house and i stop into his place from time to time. The work he does is impressive, but $2200 for an AK is just to dammed much. That being said, i am gonna have him do some work on one of the AK's.
Back to $2200 for one of his AK's, its like you said, its not like he builds them from the ground up, he takes a rifle and messages everything ever so nicely.
I agree he should be buying WASR's and giving them the treatment. The WASR is already a solid AK and with his messaging, it will be an excellent AK.
One thing ive been planning on doing was when PSA released triangle folders with polymer furniture was to buy one, drop it off to Krebs so he can do a 90 degree gasblock/sight, cut off about 2.5 inches from the barrel then install a AK74 brake.
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Old 12-03-2017, 03:04 AM   #52
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The first successful US AK manufacturer will have the quietest complaint department. This mentality has sold thousands of so so AR's, just do to the customer receiving what he paid for. Not return shipping label fiascos or ignored feed back. The AK market is still in my opinion in its beginnings. We have only now seen newer pruducts starting to addresse new concepts and designs that were for a long time not available to AK owners. Alot of bad press AK's get are due to them being foreign made and alot of regular people being suspicious of said companies and for good reason too. And the fact that so far all US made AK's have had an even worse reputation really makes things even worse. How many people that don't own AK's have said as an excuse for not owning one "AK's aren't accurate" but will turn to their M1A nightmare of a field strip and be completely satisfied?
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Old 12-03-2017, 12:02 PM   #53
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Kreb's is like under 10 minutes from our lake house and i stop into his place from time to time. The work he does is impressive, but $2200 for an AK is just to dammed much. That being said, i am gonna have him do some work on one of the AK's.
Back to $2200 for one of his AK's, its like you said, its not like he builds them from the ground up, he takes a rifle and messages everything ever so nicely.
I agree he should be buying WASR's and giving them the treatment. The WASR is already a solid AK and with his messaging, it will be an excellent AK.
One thing ive been planning on doing was when PSA released triangle folders with polymer furniture was to buy one, drop it off to Krebs so he can do a 90 degree gasblock/sight, cut off about 2.5 inches from the barrel then install a AK74 brake.
I'm sorry but taking a what should be a $400 rifle and adding a few do dad's and refinishing this or that dosent make it a any thing special.
It's still got a $20 barrel and a $10 reciver and if your lucky a $60 trigger group.
To me it'd like having AJ Fort installing 20" rims on a chevy caprice..

Guys are on here gushing about there made for export Wasr having a heart beat and soul of some romanticized communist factory is a load of crap. It's low paid workers slaving away to produce some poor quality copy to a bunch of wealth Americans so they can play army on a dirt clod or milk jug 90% if the time.
They have as much soul and heart beat as my made in Japan TV has to a Samurai Sword.

I have demilled a lot of military issue Rommy kits . I don't know how people equate machine work that looks like it was done with a grinder , parts that are crooked and wood that looks like it came from the dumpster of a pallet company as good thing.
When is a non concentric bore on a improperly head spaced rifle somthing you get excited about.
Just because your rifle shoots a 4" group reliably dosent make it a value.

I have had and have some Saigas so rough they litteraly drew blood taking them out of the box and we're non functional .
On the ones that are built right there is no feeling of quality when holding them for the first time. Honestly I have held some air soft rifles and pellet rifles that had a better feel.
I still have a unfired Saiga ( 308) that's not shootable. Even if it was it's a POS. A 1/4" of trigger pre travel that's at about 8 pounds is a joke. Yes I measured it.

Guys may be right a lot of the AK market may be based on a romantic feeling to some third world crap hole but that dosent mean American, Mexicans or any one else could not equal or better a Rommy or any other flavor AK.
As far as quality of steel we can make anything the Russians or any other AK maker does better and more consistant.

The AR will run fine . I'm not a huge fan.
There more prone to breakage snd stoppage.

There are cheap AR Parts no doubt and honestly the average accuracy of the AR has been reduced buy millions if cheap ones with very cheap barrels bringing the average down.

It fact that AR bolts can and do break and there are recommend replacement intervals .
The AK bolt is stronger that fact not fiction.

However a lot of the American buyers crap about I must have a AK to defend my home and my family because it's the mist reliable is a load of shit.

Again I'm not saying Krebs stuff is bad I know it's not but he's made a name for himself like Jessie James or the Tuttle's have in the custom Motorcycle world . Having Mikey come replace the valve stem caps and add ape hangers on my moped dosent make it a $40,000 custom chopper.
The same can be said with many of the famous AR builders.
Having there hand guard and pistol grip dosent change the fact the upper and lower likely came from the same place a $500 AR does.

I'm Sorry but for me a $2200 firearm better have somthing more than drop in parts and some fancy special pant.

I just put away a decent trap gun that's worth about $2200.
It's got really good wood with a well done hand cut adjustable comb. It has nice cut checkering , the trigger is gold plated and it has well done engraving and some cold enlay. It's got not one but two barrels with very precisely threaded in chokes . It's trigger is very crisp and predictable. The reciver us beautifully milled and the fore end , lock and other parts are very well fit with near zero slop or play and they have held up for thousands if rounds. The bluing is very nice gor a mid grade trap gun.
This is the Quality you can get ftom a factory produced firearm made in the United States, Italy, Japan and else were in the $2000 to $3000 price range. Even the sub $1000 versions have much of this level of quality.
I don't care how you slice it the amount of work and level of precision on its reciver is higher than a AK,s trunion and this is not a fire arm sold by the millions but likely a few thousand a year .

A AK trunion after its forged mostly into shape can be CNC milled precisely by the thousands in a few minutes.

If a small start up company like DDI was able to actually make a decent forged trunion, bolt and carrier in the very short time they did despite some things not going well imagine if Ruger, or Savage or Remington decided to build a AK .
You can say what ever you want about Dave at DDI but they were close to doing it and with not a lot of people or previous gun manufacturering experience and they were at about the same price.
I have handled a couple of those rifles including the one Rob Ski had there is not a differance in the feel of them and a converted Saiga or a plastic furniture Romy.
The finish was nicer IMO.
Being as impartial as I can be I felt they got very close in a very short time .
I haven't seen what PSA has now as far as forged parts.
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Old 12-03-2017, 12:41 PM   #54
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The first successful US AK manufacturer will have the quietest complaint department. This mentality has sold thousands of so so AR's, just do to the customer receiving what he paid for. Not return shipping label fiascos or ignored feed back. The AK market is still in my opinion in its beginnings. We have only now seen newer pruducts starting to addresse new concepts and designs that were for a long time not available to AK owners. Alot of bad press AK's get are due to them being foreign made and alot of regular people being suspicious of said companies and for good reason too. And the fact that so far all US made AK's have had an even worse reputation really makes things even worse. How many people that don't own AK's have said as an excuse for not owning one "AK's aren't accurate" but will turn to their M1A nightmare of a field strip and be completely satisfied?
We all saw how a Bad Review hurt DDI and a few other companies.

I Wonder how say DDI would have faired if say the the rifle Rob Ski had tested been 1" MOA or better, took a optic on the RSB and had been in say 6.5 grendel ,223 ,308 or 6.5 creedmore and made 5000 rounds??
Personaly I don't get the need to COPY a existing AK and keep all its shortcomings.

Guys buy AK,s for there reliability or the fact they think it's a cool rifle the bad guys have.

Right now there are few 223, 5.45 or 308 options.
I don't understand the desire to produce a AK in 7.62x39 as it's the mist compeaditave market and has the most choices already.
I personaly feel a reasonably accurate 223 AK with good reliability would sell. Guys are paying $2500 for piston drive AR'S that are not as reliable as a AK .

Right now there there is cheap 6.5 Grendel ammo and zero new AK choices due to sanctions.
If I was PSA or some other AK maker I'd be offering a 6.5 version and it would be optics ready.
It cost less to have a RSB with a center slotted rail on it than it does one with a adjustable sight leaf and spring.
Americans like optics on top of there rifles. Give it to them.
A 5" section of rail over the cover makes it possable . Give it to them. The AK sight system is among the worst loose it.

A ALG type trigger cost about the same to make as a shit one .
the DDI had a not great trigger when it could have been much better for near the same cost.
If you make the reciver you know the hole placement can be the same every time offer a better trigger or go to a drop in for a bit more.
Decent 3 pound drop in AR triggers for under $100 are a reality.
No reason a AK trigger needs to suck either.

I'm sorry but a $700 on up rifle needs a better more accurate barrel. If Savage can offer a sub 3/4" bolt action for $250 a US company can offer a barrel near the same quality even nitrided or chromed for a reasonable cost.

A AK can have a screw in barrel threaded trunion.
With today's precision manufacturering it's likely cheaper to make a threaded barrel that head spaces perfect every time on every bolt.

If they can make AR bolts and barrels that really dont require head space check on assembly then it can be done here.
The press and pin of the AK barrel is labor intensive and error prone. It also makes barrel replacement difficult.

The cost of having someone press in and head space a AK barrel is likely more than the cost of the barrel it's self at American labor rates. Same goes for gas block assembly and trigger instalation.

Keep the good stuff on a AK refine the bad.

If Kreb's can find a market for a more refined AK then a company can make one to start with.

Also why a US company can't build a decent blow back 9mm AK pistol for around $350 is beyond me.
A $175 22 LR has more moving parts and a stock and is optics ready.
Again find areas of the market were there is things people want not were it's saturated.

I'd buy a 9mm blow back kit if it was priced right.
How hard is a block with a hold in it and a one piece bolt/ carrier with no lugs??
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:08 PM   #55
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Something I never see mentioned ..... New semi autos sales could be banned nation wide.
If I was a firearm co id be very hesitant to tool up for new things that have a limited market to start with.
Some states the AK is basically outlawed already
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:15 PM   #56
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Something I never see mentioned ..... New semi autos sales could be banned nation wide.
If I was a firearm co id be very hesitant to tool up for new things that have a limited market to start with.
Some states the AK is basically outlawed already
That possibility has existed for the last half century.

If manufacturers followed that logic there would be no more AR's, and dozens of other sporting semi-auto's manufactured., nor semi auto imports etc.

Not much chance of that. There are other issues that would be more likely or easier to tackle for the anti gun proponents.

Ammunition restriction, component restrictions, magazine capacity restrictions, transfer restrictions, in state transfer/sales restriction, gun show sales restrictions etc., etc.
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:39 PM   #57
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Same as Misha above - I have no interest in AK made out of com block as well as AR or 1911 made outside of US. Galil for example is Galil and not AK anyhow and it keeps very limited interest from me as well. Bad news we are loosing import of good AK’s, good news personally for me that I have 5 different Arsenals and 3 Veprs in my gun cabinet and plenty of parts for them as well. Why can’t US make good AK? I don’t really care why, I would prefer to see US companies focusing on making cheap steel ammo like Russian calibers (5.45, 7.62, 9x18, 54r etc) instead.
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Old 12-03-2017, 01:53 PM   #58
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Just a few things to consider/think on....

The really inexpensive AR15s..the ones in the $400 to $550 range, many of the parts in those are actually imported from China or elsewhere in Asia. I am not talking about quality here, only that that allows for a lower price point.

Also, the AR15 is a more modern design compared with the AK or AKM. Therefore, it lends itself better to more modern manufacturing techniques. The AR requires advanced tooling with relatively tight tolerances, but not as much hands-on manual labor. Less fitting is required.
Compare that with the AK. It still uses some mfg techniques from WWII and can require a good bit of matching up parts by hand and hand fitting them together. But it can be made on less complex machinry.

The AK was designed to be produced in huge factories, on giant production lines. H. Ford would be amazed what the Russians (and later Chinese) were able to create as far as those. Sure it cost Comblock countires a lot of money to set them up, but since they were planning to produce the rifles by the millions, it was worth it as after the setup cost, the individual rifle cost was very low.
eIf an American company had a contract for 5,000,000 AKs, then yes it could invest the time and money into a proper production line and thus turn out Top quality AKs.
But just to sell a few thousand a year on the civilian market? The AK was not designed for that style or scale of production.
The AR is better suited for that, and that is why so many small companies can turn them out. Of course even there, most are just assembly houses; getting many of their base parts from other (bigger) factories.

Honestly trying to say an AK should or shouldn't be something because an AR is or isn't that thing is the true definition of comparing apples to oranges.
The 2 designs are radically different in concept, construction, and strengths and weaknesses.

For someone like me, a 100% USA made AK holds no interest. This has little to nothing to do with its features or longevity. It has everything to do with the fact that when I hold one, it has no heartbeat, no pulse. It has no soul; no connection with an old world Comblock factory and thus the days of the Cold War, and that global struggle whose history I find infinitely interesting.
I would feel the same about an AR15 copy made in China or even Russia. I like my SP1 so much because it does have history and represents the USA during a critical war. It came out of the same factory doors that thousands of M16A1s did that were sent to our boys in Vietnam. It has spirit, meaning.

These 100% USA AKs? They mean nothing, and sooner or later will be forgotten, dumped in the dustbin of history.

Just things to think on, nothing more, cheers.
And I am not talking about well done AK kit guns. Sure they were assembled here, but many of their parts are from Europe...sometimes even having been in actual military service. So they retain a connection to the past still.
Agreed, they've always been lame, boring, subpar, commercial grade shit to me.
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:01 PM   #59
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Right now there are few 223, 5.45 or 308 options.
I don't understand the desire to produce a AK in 7.62x39 as it's the mist compeaditave market and has the most choices already.
I personaly feel a reasonably accurate 223 AK with good reliability would sell. Guys are paying $2500 for piston drive AR'S that are not as reliable as a AK .
Totally agree with you about 5.56 AK's. With AR guy's getting tired of building and buying them, they would be open or i should say more open so if AK's came in 556. The big selling point is that they dont have to get into another caliber. With 223/556 being America's caliber its silly that no AK's are being offered in that round.
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Old 12-03-2017, 02:57 PM   #60
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Same as Misha above - I have no interest in AK made out of com block as well as AR or 1911 made outside of US. Galil for example is Galil and not AK anyhow and it keeps very limited interest from me as well. Bad news we are loosing import of good AKís, good news personally for me that I have 5 different Arsenals and 3 Veprs in my gun cabinet and plenty of parts for them as well. Why canít US make good AK? I donít really care why, I would prefer to see US companies focusing on making cheap steel ammo like Russian calibers (5.45, 7.62, 9x18, 54r etc) instead.
Zem, with the very real possibility of imports being banned one day, American made maybe the only game left.
With American gun manufactures being some of the best in the world, theres no reason not to buy an American made AK once they get their shit straight.
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Old 12-03-2017, 03:00 PM   #61
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Just a hunch, but I would bet that RILEY Defense will be offering one in the future. IMHO they are the rising star of American gun manufacturers with great quality control and customer service. It speaks volumes when Atlantic uses them for some of their builds. I have spoken directly with the owner on a couple of occasions and can tell you that this is a company that listens to its customers and works hard at improving their product.
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Old 12-03-2017, 03:23 PM   #62
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Zem, with the very real possibility of imports being banned one day, American made maybe the only game left.
With American gun manufactures being some of the best in the world, theres no reason not to buy an American made AK once they get their shit straight.
I think there is another thing people forget that the demand for AK'S is very small in the US compared to other firearms. A majority of firearms owners in the US believe the AK is nothing more than an ugly, inaccurate, terrorist POS. IMO if the demand was there you would see American company's build them. But with combloc AK'S like the wasr10 being able to be had for 600 it makes no sense to invest into building them. Even if a ban on imports were to happen I dought there would American firearms company's jumping into the AK building market. AK enthusiasts need to remember that tho we appreciate the AK for what it is in America the AR is king and will always be. You have a good point on the 5.56 AK tho that I share, dumped my 74 and went 106fr and don't regret my decision in any way.

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Old 12-03-2017, 03:49 PM   #63
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The AK was a lot more popular when they were $300 and ammo was under $100 a case for plinking and having a reliable defense rifle.

Today it's a hip thing to have one.

I would not pay $500 for a WASR except to maybe resell sell it.
Nothing wrong with them just nothing special.
If I want some AK heart and soul and military nostalgia I'd want a well used kit maybe with carvings on a good reciver.

I have a few m70 yugo kits like that set aside.
Honestly I could just put the pieces on a board and hang it on the wall as far as it being part of history.
I have a stock with a bullet hole in it I'll do a battle field pick build on some day.

I think a 223 or 6.5 version US made with maybe a AR mag well with optics ready AK type rifle would sell well if it was priced right.
Aybe a Serbia type interchangeable barrel set up might sell with a 7.63x39 and 6.5 barrel set.

I'm rebarreling a factory built AK to 6.5 grendel .
It's something I can't buy right now.

A US AK builder could also supply parts . That's something getting shorter and shorter in supply.
Would be nice to see some 308 bolts and trunions.

I'd really like a 308 Saiga or vepr bolt. I have been looking.
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Old 12-03-2017, 03:56 PM   #64
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"in America the AR is king and will always be."


About thirty long guns at the range today, 1/3 were AR variants, a handful of Ruger precisions, a few other bolt guns, a C39 for a brief moment, and me with my WASR, and Galil Ace. I am routinely the only person out there shooting AKs. I know that isn't an accurate depiction of the AK market, especially being in Commiefornia, but I do believe the number of AKs across the country are a small, very small fraction of the long gun population. This an AK forum, so we're in an echo chamber of what we love, so in our minds, demand is high. In reality, AKs are more of a collectors gun, and collector guns will never have the demand that warrants large investments in tooling and manufacturing.


As I wrote the above, I realized that I would probably never have acquired more than one or two AKs if it weren't for the different countries of origin. If all we have going forward is American AKs, I might own just one.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:13 PM   #65
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A lot of opinions and speculations here, my own post included of course.

1Biggun, it just seems that the AK means different things to you and me. So we look for different things in one when we buy. That is completely ok though.
I do agree with you when you say US mfgrs should try and fill holes in the market where a need, a nitch isn't being filled. Why just make yet another AKM clone in 7.62x39 w/o anything to set it apart from the rest?
If you are going to do something, do something that is different yet also something enough people want so that you can sell X number.

As to .223 AKs, for various reasons they have never sold well here. From the Chinese Type 84S to the Saiga in .223, to the SAR-3/WASR-3, to the SLR-106/SAM-5, and even the Archer which I love so much....none of these sold even remotely as well as their 7.62x39 counterparts.

The Archer was particularly baffling, and I can only blame its failure on I.O. With it, Radom made a .223 AK that was as reliable as one in X39, improoved the ergonomics with better controls, and even managed to get accuracy down under 2 MOA and as low as 1 MOA with the right ammo.
So AK reliability + AR15 accuracy. Oh and it was very easy to mount an optic on the Archer and most sold even came with a rail mount right out of the box.
Agreed that the initial price of $1,400 was too much, but when they dropped to $1,200 and came with that rail? That was getting more reasonable, and then they dropped to $999.95 and that was a bargain for what you were getting if you ask me.

Still, the Archer failed just as really every other .223 had done before and has done since. Sad and again...I blame I.O. Then again, if i could I'd blame I.O. for killing Jesus....I really don't like that company heh.


As to Galils..i am there with you Zem. I don't think of them as AKs, just as I don't think of every DI rifle as an AR15. A Galil is a Galil. I like them, just am not in love with them, if that makes sense? The Ace in 5.56 I enjoy shooting and think I'll hang onto, but there's not much there left of the AK design outside of the BCG and some in the FCG. They are good guns, I know this. It is just I love me some old, roughly machined, out of a dumpster wood, handfitted (and sometimes handfuckedup) Comblock AK action.
For me, its not playing badguy or anything like that. I lived over there, traveled, met people, studied their history. For me its about the past and keeping it alive and touching a part of it. Romania, Hungary, Poland, Russia....these places aren't 3rd shitholes where the workers are always appressed and abused. They are where people have lived, loved, died for centuries; developing their cultures and unique ways of looking at the world. I enjoy learning, and its all a part of that for me.

That's what an AK can mean to me. Plus there's all the engineering and looking at manufacturing techniques. If something is made roughly yet still works perfectly, that can tell you something too.
Not every gun needs to be or even should be a finely crafted and engraved piece of art. There is a place for sure guns for sure, just I don't think it is with the AK.
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Old 12-03-2017, 04:14 PM   #66
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Zem, with the very real possibility of imports being banned one day, American made maybe the only game left.
With American gun manufactures being some of the best in the world, theres no reason not to buy an American made AK once they get their shit straight.
It would be something else, MuraGalil for example but not AK. I like AK and AR and 1911 and Makarov etc but all made right places and time. I am 53 and I have enought AK’s to last until I am out of this world ...
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Old 12-03-2017, 06:22 PM   #67
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That possibility has existed for the last half century.

If manufacturers followed that logic there would be no more AR's, and dozens of other sporting semi-auto's manufactured., nor semi auto imports etc.

Not much chance of that. There are other issues that would be more likely or easier to tackle for the anti gun proponents.

Ammunition restriction, component restrictions, magazine capacity restrictions, transfer restrictions, in state transfer/sales restriction, gun show sales restrictions etc., etc.
I said ((((( tool up for something new)))))
Not continue to sell something that's been around and tool up cost paid for long ago (AR)
Imports have nothing to do with what I said and require zero set up cost / manufacturing investment
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Old 12-03-2017, 06:39 PM   #68
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$1200 for a 223 AK like the Archer is to much.

I can buy a browning BAR in 7 or 300 mag for that. It will have a quality parts fit and finish and be accurate.
I can by a AR with a Kreiger barrel for that.

There are about a dozen AR caliburs selling for hunting G purposes or more power for defense.
There is a market for a reasonably priced semi automatic rifles that deliver more than 223 or 7.62x39 power.
AR 10 type rifles are dropping In price . DPMS has the smaller lighter 308 now yet a 308 AK variant is almost extinct.

A 308 AK costs maybe $5 more to manufacture so why is there none for sale? ?
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Old 12-03-2017, 07:03 PM   #69
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I said ((((( tool up for something new)))))
Not continue to sell something that's been around and tool up cost paid for long ago (AR)
Imports have nothing to do with what I said and require zero set up cost / manufacturing investment
New companies come and go in the firearm industry. Colt included as thay have had several reorgs snd filings for financial problems. ORF Lancaster Arms, and several others. But new ones pop up like PSA making AK' s etc.

Just saying tbe manufacturing semi-auto firearms has not been outlawed in recent history and not likely to pass nor imports restricted other than the Russian sanctions of tecent times. No big deal.
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Old 12-03-2017, 08:25 PM   #70
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It seems the cast trunion crap is out selling the comblock stuff.
So there is a market !
I see more of those at shows than anything lately.

What are numbers of the cast crap VS Comblock sales in the last year. Every time one of those sell its a lost opportunity to a quality maker.
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